Rome is Burning While the Pope is Fiddling

Catholic Apologetics International ^ | January 3, 2003 | Mario Derksen

[traditionalist]

In his December 11th column, Patrick Buchanan wrote about the decline of Catholicism in the Church since Vatican II, based on statistics collected by Kenneth C. Jones of St. Louis. Among the findings: dramatic decreases in Mass attendance, an incredible loss of faith in the Real Presence, gigantic drops in the number of seminarians, priests, and religious, and a sky-rocketing increase in marriage annulments.

In response to Buchanan's article, Carl E. Olson from Envoy Magazine countered with the typical Neo-Catholic line that Buchanan and other traditionalists have simply "misunderstood" Vatican II, that the council has not even been fully "implemented" yet, and that blaming the council is not the solution. I believed this for a while myself and parroted exactly that, until one day I could simply no longer deny the obvious.

Click here to continue.

[traditionalist]

This article might generate some spirited discussion.

[Dialup Llama]

Mine already does. Why wait? See if there's one in your area.

[sinkspur]

I believe that the Catholic Church should and will go back to the Tridentine Latin Mass. I can't wait!

The Catholic Church will never return to the Tridentine Mass as a substitute for the Novus Ordo.

[yendu bwam]

The article is right on. Vatican II, while making the Church more accessible in some ways to lay Catholics, has had the perverse effect of bringing forth forces who want to remake the Church in the nature of society - rather than to save souls. The homosexual rape and molestation of a couple of thousands teenage boys by American Catholic priests is a symptom of a Church which has part of embracing society, has embraced the sexual depravity of that society. I don't know if Rome is burning, but the souls of millions of American Catholics (myself included) are being tortured by what our Church has become.

[FBDinNJ]

There are already many Latin Masses available throughout the country. Check out http://www.latinmass.org to find one near you.

I'm just hoping that we're eventually granted a worldwide Apostolic Administration so that we would be our own rite, much like Byzantine or Maronite Catholics.

[Dialup Llama]

Yes making it its own rite would be good. As it is now, you can have a Tridentine Mass for Sundays and Holy Days but you cannot get married or have a funeral using the Tridentine Mass.

[B-Chan]

Anglican Usage of the Roman Rite bump!

[BillyBoy]

I perfer masses in English so I can figure out what the heck is going on. Of course, there should be the option of having masses AVAILABLE in Latin for those are interested in that sort of thing.

I don't have a problem with Vatican II's decision to get rid of an all-Latin masses tradition because the whole reason the church adopted Latin was due to it being the most popular language at the time. Before then, almost all masses were in Greek. Before Greek, 1st century Christians used to conduct most masses in Armenian or Hebrew. Obviously, the early Christians had no intention of using Latin until it became prevailent in the Christian world. Today, Latin is a dead language that few understand.

English is the universal language in these times and it is only common sense to have most masses in English. I would even include phasing in English-speaking masses in most Latin American countries, so they can begin to identify with the rest of the Catholic brethen.

[tbird5]

The Catholic Church has always had its problems , always will. The history of the church is riddled with conflict and scandal. Yet it was founded by Jesus Christ Himself and will always be a great, true, stonge institution of faith..."This too will pass"

[Desdemona]

Mass in English is wonderful, but as someone who spends time in Europe, the Latin option would be nice to have everywhere.

[egomeimihi]

Anyone want to make a thousand dollars?

[Arthur McGowan]

I don't have a problem with Vatican II's decision to get rid of an all-Latin masses tradition because the whole reason the church adopted Latin was due to it being the most popular language at the time.

Just to keep the record straight: Vatican II called for the people to be better instructed in Latin, so they could sing and say their parts of the Mass in Latin--MORE Latin, not less.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

Vatican II will be fully implemented when they are no more Catholics.

This guy should just come out and say the Pope is not Catholic.

[FBDinNJ]

You actually can have funerals and weddings in Latin but it has to be done by orders of Priests who were formed specifically to use the 1962 forms of worship. I believe there are currently only two such orders in the USA at the moment, and they are The Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter and The Institute of Christ the King.

[FBDinNJ]

I also have no problem with the mass said in English according to the 1969 missal, if it is done properly. However, that is a HUGE if in my area. Every mass that I've been to at parishes in my area, I've witnessed many liturgical abuses. This isn't even taking into consideration the nearly always pointless or unorthodox sermons which spew from the pulpits of these churches.

That being said I have grown very attached to the Latin Mass, and the more Latin I learn (I'm currently taking it at my University) the more I come to respect the mass. Its especially odd in my situation because I grew up never knowing anything but the mass in the vernacular and the constant changes which were introduced into the liturgy by my local parish priests.

[FBDinNJ]

English is the universal language in these times and it is only common sense to have most masses in English. I would even include phasing in English-speaking masses in most Latin American countries, so they can begin to identify with the rest of the Catholic brethen.

Oh please tell me you're joking with this comment. I believe that currently the majority of Catholics in the world live in Latin America. So shouldn't we be attending masses in Spanish so as to better relate to our Spanish Catholic brethren? :-)

In all seriousness if something like this were even attempted not only would the Church in Latin America loose more believers to the Pentecostals who are taking away people from the Church by the busload, but it would also give ammmunition to the few remaining believers in Liberation Theology (Marxist Catholics).

[BillyBoy]

I seriously doubt that North America, Europe, Asia, and Africa COMBINED would have less Catholics than a single contient. The United States alone is home to the 4th highest Catholic population in the U.S. Also factoring in that Catholics in places such as the U.S. and Italy tend to attend mass much more often than often indifferent Catholics in Latin America. Nominal Catholics wouldn't care what language is spoken at mass.

Here's an example of number of Catholic dioseses per country:

Italy- 224
USA- 193
India- 144
Canada- 72
Great Britain- 32
Australia- 36
South Africa- 27

Colombia- 71
Argentina- 69
Mexico- 68
Spain- 68
Peru 45
Venezuela 37
Portugal- 21

Bear in mind that those are the spanish country's with the biggest populations, where the population is 90% "catholic" (the non-spanish counties are perhaps 40% Catholic) I think it shows you where there is more of a demand for going to church.

English tends to be a "second" language around the world, Latin tends to be a second language only among classical scholars, and Spanish is a second language only in the U.S. due to the high influx of latino immigrants.

In Europe (and the rest of the world), nobody knows spanish unless they live in Spain. Many Europeans are familar with English (and to an extent, German) though.

[traditionalist]

FYI, it's not just the language that changed. Just look at an English translation of a 1962 or earlier missal and compare it to an English version of the Novus Ordo (the current, post-1969 missal). Parts of the mass that were thousands of years old were scrapped. New texts were fabricated out of whole cloth. Those parts of the mass that emphasized particularly Catholic doctrines, such as the propitiatory nature of the Sacrifice, the treasury of merit, purgatory, and the like were all toned down. Instead of praying for the Jews' conversion we now pray that they "grow in their covenent. Etc. I could go on and on, but you get the picture.

[traditionalist]

Oh, man. I hadn't seen that geocentrism nonsense on that website. What an embarassament. These people are nuts.

Anyway, I just posted that article because I thought it would make for interesting discussion.