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Atheist expects Boy Scouts to change, but not soon
The Seattle Post-Intelligencer ^ | 12/30/02 | JOHN IWASAKI

Posted on 01/03/2003 8:35:59 AM PST by RonF

Darrell Lambert is prepared for a long struggle with the Boy Scouts of America, one decided by public opinion and not by lawsuits.

The 19-year-old Eagle Scout, the subject of national attention after being booted out of the organization last month for being an atheist, doesn't think his recent appeal will reverse his situation. Not soon, anyway.

Darrell Lambert of Olalla, who was kicked out of the Boy Scouts for being an atheist, has appealed the decision. But he says he won't go to court. "I'd like them to realize it is the moral thing to do."

"I think eventually the Boy Scouts will change," the Olalla teen said yesterday. "It'll just take longer than I like."

Lambert, who earned 37 merit badges in 10 years and assisted in leading a Port Orchard troop, sent his appeal last week to the Scouts' Western Region office in Tempe, Ariz. His letter started a process that likely could take months to resolve.

...

"Legally, (the Scouts) have a right to discriminate," Lambert said at a presentation on the issue yesterday. "Morally, they don't. That's what I'm fighting. They can't teach good citizenship and practice bad citizenship."

(Excerpt) Read more at seattlepi.nwsource.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: boyscouts; bsa; bsalist; lpfagsfor; scouts
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To: Terriergal
Yes, it's the principle that matters.
161 posted on 01/03/2003 6:09:40 PM PST by BMCDA
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To: xm177e2
Humans are not animals, we are sentient beings, as such, we can be expected to follow a moral code.

Why does sentience (self awareness .. which all animals share with humans) have to do with morality?

But this is a moot conjecture because if 'jesus' came back and said that, it would by definition NOT be Jesus.

You're putting limits on the powers of God????

1 Samuel 15:29 "Also the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind."

James 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone..."

Psalm 102 I:25-27 "In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
Like clothing you will change them
and they will be discarded.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.


Malachi 3:6 "I the LORD do not change...

Numbers 23:19 "God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?"
Hebrews 1:1-12 "The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father"? [Psalm 2:7] Or again, "I will be his Father,[2 Samuel 7:14; 1 Chron. 17:13]
and he will be my Son" And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him." [Deut. 32:43] In speaking of the angels he says, "He makes his angels winds, his servants flames of fire.[Psalm 104:4] "But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy." [Psalm 45:6,7] He also says, "In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.
They will perish, but you remain;

they will all wear out like a garment.
You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end." [Psalm 102:25-27]

God defines his own limits. There is no Yin Yang with Him.

The best proof that something exists is that it exists.

I don't believe in Ayn Rand.

162 posted on 01/03/2003 6:32:20 PM PST by Terriergal
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To: xm177e2
The best proof that something exists is that it exists.

Welcome to the wonderful world of tautology.

163 posted on 01/03/2003 6:33:14 PM PST by Terriergal
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To: BMCDA
I wonder why.
164 posted on 01/03/2003 6:36:15 PM PST by Terriergal
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I must admit, post #163 was Cyrano's response, not mine.
165 posted on 01/03/2003 6:36:50 PM PST by Terriergal
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To: Terriergal
God defines his own limits.

So can he change his mind about not lying? Was he lying when he said he couldn't lie?

166 posted on 01/03/2003 6:43:19 PM PST by xm177e2
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To: Terriergal
I think the quote was actually more like "the best proof something is possible is that it exists," but the point stands.
167 posted on 01/03/2003 6:44:17 PM PST by xm177e2
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To: xm177e2
Now you're just being a jerk. Care to proceed with a rational discussion or are you tired of that?
168 posted on 01/03/2003 7:09:19 PM PST by Terriergal
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To: xm177e2
Like I said, Ayn Rand is a figment of your imagination.
169 posted on 01/03/2003 7:09:52 PM PST by Terriergal
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To: xm177e2
To answer your questions no, and no. But yes, those are answers that are taken on faith, and on evidence down through history. Even more so do atheists take their stance on faith.
170 posted on 01/03/2003 7:12:25 PM PST by Terriergal
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To: xm177e2
If God can/does change his mind, then there is no hope whatsoever.
171 posted on 01/03/2003 7:13:08 PM PST by Terriergal
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To: Diverdogz
Very interesting but it hardly addresses the point, now does it?

Do you believe that there are moral absolutes?

If there are moral absolutes then where did they come from?

If there aren't, then morals are relative and your system of morals may differ from the next guys.

You are much too defensive. I know quite a few atheists and agnostics who adhere to a strict moral code.

Screaming about atrocities committed by men in the name of a religion is not germane to the question. Men are possessed of free will and what that they do with that free will is up to them. Men who murder in the name of religion are evil because it is absolutely immoral to do so, no?

172 posted on 01/03/2003 7:14:48 PM PST by jwalsh07
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To: Terriergal
If God can/does change his mind, then there is no hope whatsoever.

So then murder and rape would be morally acceptable? If there's no hope, there's no moral rules, right? I hear many Christians say morality comes from God--so if God died (or left, or went bad), does that mean morality ceases to exist?

173 posted on 01/03/2003 7:16:34 PM PST by xm177e2
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To: Terriergal
Atheism is a tough stance to take. It requires an absolute faith that there is no higher authority which from all the evidence I have seen is not the correct door to choose.
174 posted on 01/03/2003 7:17:25 PM PST by jwalsh07
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To: jwalsh07
If there are moral absolutes then where did they come from?

Why do absolutes have to come from somewhere? Why can't they be natural? (that's what the writers of the Constitution thought.)

175 posted on 01/03/2003 7:18:07 PM PST by xm177e2
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To: xm177e2
I hear many Christians say morality comes from God--so if God died (or left, or went bad), does that mean morality ceases to exist?

Nietzche is dead.
God

:-}

176 posted on 01/03/2003 7:19:37 PM PST by jwalsh07
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To: RonF
All we have here is a disgruntled scout, who knew up front that the B.S.A. didn't suit him and be wants to change the organization to suit his agenda.

I give the G.S.A. nothing. I donate heavily to the B.S.A.. I discriminate when it comes to where my money goes.

177 posted on 01/03/2003 7:20:53 PM PST by nmh
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To: xm177e2
Why can't they be natural? (that's what the writers of the Constitution thought.)

That is incorrect, the writers of the Constitution were mainly Christians with a smattering of deists and all penned their names to the Declaration of Independence acknowledging that rights were unalienable and granted by the "creator".

178 posted on 01/03/2003 7:21:32 PM PST by jwalsh07
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To: xm177e2
Why do absolutes have to come from somewhere?

Well as I see it there are a few choices. Either they simply materialized out of thin air. Sort of like an ever expanding universe that came from nothing absent a catalyst.

Or it could be that moral absolutes simply assembled themselves like the monkey typing Shakespear on a computer given enough time.

Or they were God given. The only one that makes sense to me is the final one.

179 posted on 01/03/2003 7:26:03 PM PST by jwalsh07
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To: Tired of Taxes
doesn't allow the boys denied admission to establish their own group?

Look like they can, they just can't call themselves BOY SCOUTS because that name has a copyright, so to speak. It would be the same as if some company decided to take facial tissues and call them Cleanex. I'm sure the Kleenex company would sue for copyright infringement.

Why don't the atheist young men call themselves 'Guides'. That's what they were called in England before the idea was brought to the US. Seems like the Spiral Scouts are doing ok with their name. I had to laugh though, when I saw that many of their chapters meet in Unitarian Churches.

180 posted on 01/03/2003 7:53:00 PM PST by SuziQ
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