Atheist expects Boy Scouts to change, but not soon

The Seattle Post-Intelligencer ^ | 12/30/02 | JOHN IWASAKI

[RonF]

Darrell Lambert is prepared for a long struggle with the Boy Scouts of America, one decided by public opinion and not by lawsuits.

The 19-year-old Eagle Scout, the subject of national attention after being booted out of the organization last month for being an atheist, doesn't think his recent appeal will reverse his situation. Not soon, anyway.

Darrell Lambert of Olalla, who was kicked out of the Boy Scouts for being an atheist, has appealed the decision. But he says he won't go to court. "I'd like them to realize it is the moral thing to do."

"I think eventually the Boy Scouts will change," the Olalla teen said yesterday. "It'll just take longer than I like."

Lambert, who earned 37 merit badges in 10 years and assisted in leading a Port Orchard troop, sent his appeal last week to the Scouts' Western Region office in Tempe, Ariz. His letter started a process that likely could take months to resolve.

...

"Legally, (the Scouts) have a right to discriminate," Lambert said at a presentation on the issue yesterday. "Morally, they don't. That's what I'm fighting. They can't teach good citizenship and practice bad citizenship."

[RonF]

I'm not surprised. Many theists openly admit that they hold irrational opinions regarding atheists. Atheists are one of the last socially acceptable groups to hate who don't deserve it.

Someone who hates atheists on the basis of their lack of belief in God is evincing an un-Christian attitude. They ought to confess, be penitent, and seek forgiveness from God and man to lessen the peril to their soul.

[johnb838]

Yep, you got that right. I can discriminate against atheists all the live long day. Know why? God told me it was ok... even virtuous.

[RonF]

Do you at least agree that Congress should award competing organizations - one that admits nonbelievers, for example - their own charters? So, if a similar group were created using uniforms and medals (all different colors and designs) and a completely different name (like "cadets" for example), at least the gov't should award it a charter and give it the same access as the BSA enjoys (assuming the organization is just as responsible otherwise).

Yes.

Yes, but there is also a Jewish veterans group, and so on.

Yes, and there's a Girl Scouts of the United States of America, too. The BSA's not going after them, as they have an obviously different membership and purpose than the BSA. But if someone formed an organization called "American Girl Scouts", I bet the GSUSA would sue to stop it.

"Scouts" was a generic term, until the BSA decided to make it into its own.

Actually, it wasn't. And because of that, there was a lot of confusion as to whether the American Boy Scouts and the Boy Scouts of America were the same group.

Note: Groups like the 4H Club and the Boys and Girls Club are not a good comparison.

Don't see why. They both serve the same market and use some similar methods.

The BSA enjoys a special status,

How so? I don't see anything that they get that the other organizations don't have or can't get.

as they seem to be a pre-military boys organization.

Seem to who? You? Anybody else? Sure, they wear uniforms. But they don't use the same methods, and have a different object. There are some similar appearances. You try to take a bunch of kids on outdoor campouts, and you'll quickly end up having to have small squads with elected leaders if you want to get anything done. And while the use of the word "rank" seems military, in fact it's used quite differently. Someone with a higher rank in the BSA has no authority thereby over someone with a lower rank. The BSA goes to great length to eliminate similarities between it and the military. In fact, there are specific regulations banning the use of military or military-like uniforming, and adopting military training methods.

There were Scouting organizations that were pre-/para-military organizations in the early days. They died out, as that's not what most people want for their kids. Oh, and I say "kids", not "boys", since girls/young women between the ages of 14 and 21 are welcome to join Venture Crews, one of the traditional program parts of the BSA and it's fastest growing traditional program division.

[Dimensio]

I can discriminate against atheists all the live long day. Know why? God told me it was ok... even virtuous.

Ah yes. Appeal to 'God said it was okay'. Used to justify genocide, slavery and now irrational discrmination. And, of course, since your God does not really exist except as a figment of your imagination, there's no real argument because you have disposed of any rational thought.

[BMCDA]

Oh, and spiritual automatically excludes superstition. How convenient.

[RonF]

It wasn't my understanding of Deism that they believe in a God that's not omnipotent. I just thought that they believed that God was not revealed in Christian (or Jewish or Islamic, etc.) scripture, but by the use of human reason and observation. Thus, a Deist could accept the moral tenets and teachings of Jesus Christ as being worthy without believing that Jesus was a prophet of God or that Jesus himself was divine. Am I wrong?

[RonF]

Oh, and spiritual automatically excludes superstition. How convenient.

No, it's just that one man's religion is another one's superstition. An atheist might regard all religions as superstition. To one person with religion, the word "superstition" might mean not walking under a ladder. To another religious person, "superstition" might mean all religions that they themselves don't accept. So in this context I avoid using the word "superstition", as I don't think it's precise enough for what we're talking about.

[RonF]

Ah yes. Appeal to 'God said it was okay'. Used to justify genocide, slavery and now irrational discrmination.

When used to justify genocide and slavery, "God said it was O.K." is insidious and evil.

Using it to decide to not have your children taught by atheists in a group based on voluntary association is a matter of choice and is thus definitely discrimination. And, since it's not based purely on rational thought but is also based on something that is taken on faith, it's certaily fair to describe it as irrational. But I don't think that it's immoral, or that it should be illegal.

[RonF]

When used to justify genocide and slavery, "God said it was O.K." is insidious and evil.

And I should add, I believe it to be a lie.

[Dimensio]

The nature of the discrimination was not specified in johnb838's posting, thus even though the topic here is regarding the BSA's discrimination, his wording implied a much more general application of discrimination. In some cases, it would be illegal.

[RonF]

as they seem to be a pre-military boys organization.

In my experience, when someone says of a person, "He's a real Boy Scout", they're not thinking of someone who's good with weapons and has a military attitude. They're thinking of someone who has integrity and seeks to do what's right, and it's not always a compliment.

[RonF]

Ah, I'm not going to debate evolution here. I'm just pointing out that an acceptance of evolutionary theory as reflecting actual fact is not prima facie evidence that said person is an atheist. We are talking about Scouts and atheism, not evolution.

[Diverdogz]

You probably misread my post - I was trying to be clever by saying that deists believed in an Om-IMPOTENT god, one who at this time will not or can not do anything.

Deists, by my understanding, believe that some God set the universe in motion but has kept his/her hands off ever since. Thus prayer has no hope to be met with a response other than to change the mindset of the pray-er. They value the teachings of Jesus as they value the teachings of all great teachers. But no, they certainly don't believe in his divinity.

[RonF]

Deists, by my understanding, believe that some God set the universe in motion but has kept his/her hands off ever since. Thus prayer has no hope to be met with a response other than to change the mindset of the pray-er.

I am not an expert on Deism, but I believe that you are incorrect. I think that Deists do believe that one can petition God and get a response if He so chooses. I think that the issue is how God's will can be discerned; use of Scripture vs. use of reason.

I'm not looking to start a debate here. There's resources on the 'net that I confess I've only glanced thorugh if you want to do a search on Deism and see what it's all about.

[BMCDA]

No, it's just that one man's religion is another one's superstition.

Now that was my point. By admitting every belief and/or religion it appears as if they tink superstition is a good thing and is somehow required to join the scouts.

Oh, and walking under a ladder or seing a black cat requires a belief in a higher power. I mean what else could be able to cause the bad luck?

[RonF]

Now that was my point. By admitting every belief and/or religion it appears as if they tink superstition is a good thing and is somehow required to join the scouts.

They believe that some kind of spiritual belief is necessary for the proper development of young people, either as student or teacher. If you choose to classify "spiritual belief" as equivalent to superstition, you are welcome to your opinion.

[BMCDA]

I didn't have you in mind. It was merely an observation that once this topic is brought up the thread tends to drift in that direction.

[BMCDA]

Well, as far as I know (and I also know some Deists) they do indeed believe in a watchmaker god i.e. one who 'wound up' the universe but didn't intervene ever since (and most probably never will).

[xm177e2]

IF you don't believe morals come from God, then you believe morals come from YOU, or from society.

That doesn't logically follow. An atheist can believe that they're objective and exist outside people, society, or even deities. Whether there is a God or not, murder is still wrong. Rape is still wrong. Theft is still wrong. We don't need a deity to tell us that. Rules against murder have existed in all civilized societies since before the time of Christianity, when they had never been exposed to the idea of a Judeo-Christian God (Jews had not yet had their Diaspora, so most people in the world had never even heard of them, much less their god).

If Jesus came back to Earth today and told us that murder and rape were okay, that would not make them morally acceptable--at least to an atheist.

[Diverdogz]

I'll claim an score on this point. A quick google search lead me to deism.com's definition/FAQ page (http://www.deism.com/deism_defined.htm).

Frequently Asked Questions about Deism

What is the basis of Deism? Reason and nature. We see the design found throughout the known universe and this realization brings us to a sound belief in a Designer or God.

Is Deism a form of atheism? No. Atheism teaches that there is no God. Deism teaches there is a God. Deism rejects the "revelations" of the "revealed" religions but does not reject God.

If Deism teaches a belief in God, then what is the difference between Deism and the other religions like Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, etc.? Deism is, as stated above, based on nature and reason, not "revelation." All the other religions make claim to special divine revelation or they have requisite "holy" books. Deism has neither. In Deism there is no need for a preacher, priest or rabbi. All one needs in Deism is their own common sense and the creation to contemplate.

Do Deists believe that God created the creation and the world and then just stepped back from it? Some Deists do and some believe God may intervene in human affairs. For example, when George Washington was faced with either a very risky evacuation of the American troops from Long Island or surrendering them he chose the more risky evacuation. When questioned about the possibility of having them annihilated he said it was the best he could do and the rest is up to Providence.

Do Deists pray? Only prayers of thanks and appreciation. We don't dictate to God.

How do Deists view God? We view God as an eternal entity whose power is equal to his/her will. The following quote from Albert Einstein also offers a good Deistic description of God: "My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble minds. That deeply emotional conviction of the presence of a superior reasoning power, which is revealed in the incomprehensible universe, forms my idea of God."

Is Deism a cult? It's impossible for Deism to be a cult because Deism teaches self-reliance and encourages people to constantly use their reason. Deism teaches to "question authority" no matter what the cost.

Unlike the revealed religions, Deism makes no unreasonable claims. The revealed religions encourage people to give up, or at least to suspend, their God-given reason. They like to call it faith. For example, how logical is it to believe that Moses parted the Red Sea, or that Jesus walked on water, or that Mohammed received the Koran from an angel? Suspending your reason enough to believe these tales only sets a precedent that leads to believing a Jim Jones or David Koresh.

What's Deism's answer to all the evil in the world? Much of the evil in the world could be overcome or removed if humanity had embraced our God-given reason from our earliest evolutionary stages. After all, all the laws of nature that we've discovered and learned to use to our advantage that make everything from computers to medicine to space travel have existed eternally. But we've decided we'd rather live in superstition and fear instead of learning and gaining knowledge. It's much more soothing to believe we're not responsible for our own actions than to actually do the hard work required for success.

Deism doesn't claim to have all the answers to everything, we just claim to be on the right path to those answers.