Posted on 01/03/2003 8:35:59 AM PST by RonF
Darrell Lambert is prepared for a long struggle with the Boy Scouts of America, one decided by public opinion and not by lawsuits.
The 19-year-old Eagle Scout, the subject of national attention after being booted out of the organization last month for being an atheist, doesn't think his recent appeal will reverse his situation. Not soon, anyway.
Darrell Lambert of Olalla, who was kicked out of the Boy Scouts for being an atheist, has appealed the decision. But he says he won't go to court. "I'd like them to realize it is the moral thing to do."
"I think eventually the Boy Scouts will change," the Olalla teen said yesterday. "It'll just take longer than I like."
Lambert, who earned 37 merit badges in 10 years and assisted in leading a Port Orchard troop, sent his appeal last week to the Scouts' Western Region office in Tempe, Ariz. His letter started a process that likely could take months to resolve.
...
"Legally, (the Scouts) have a right to discriminate," Lambert said at a presentation on the issue yesterday. "Morally, they don't. That's what I'm fighting. They can't teach good citizenship and practice bad citizenship."
(Excerpt) Read more at seattlepi.nwsource.com ...
You do realize you just supported your opinion with a logical fallacy?
No, but I bet they'd stop someone who tried to form the "National Catholic War Veterans" or "American Catholic War Veterans" groups.
My point is that BSA uses its charter to stop others from forming competing scouting organizations.
The term "veteran" has a much more generic meaning in the context of organizations than the word "Scouts" does. The word "veteran" in an organization's name does not cause the different organizations to be confused with each other. And at the time the BSA was granted it's Federal charter, there was real confusion in the eyes of the public as to the identity and relationship of the competing organizations.
The BSA does not prevent other youth groups from forming organizations that use methods similar to the BSA. They do prevent them from using the word "Scout" in their name. Microsoft doesn't let you use their name in your company name, either, but they can't prevent you from writing and selling software.
O.K. So maybe that was a bad example, based on the legal record. But you get my point.
The religious threshold one must cross to be in scouting is very low. You can believe in a god in a deist sort of way.....an om-impotent god incapable of manipulating any events in this world. You can still participate, because there is no further religious test. A weak atheist or an agnostic willing to convert to deism pass the test. All but the the most hardcore Strong Atheist may do so.
Heehee... Yeah, I get that line all the time, too.
Yeah, whatever...
I think this is going to evolve into a crevo thread soon.
Yes, but there is also a Jewish veterans group, and so on.
The term "veteran" has a much more generic meaning in the context of organizations than the word "Scouts" does.
"Scouts" was a generic term, until the BSA decided to make it into its own. And, really, the idea that the YMCA cannot use the word "scout" in its literature... don't you agree that that is taking things too far? I can see a trademark on the name "boy scouts", but "scouts"?
The BSA does not prevent other youth groups from forming organizations that use methods similar to the BSA.
Do you at least agree that Congress should award competing organizations - one that admits nonbelievers, for example - their own charters? So, if a similar group were created using uniforms and medals (all different colors and designs) and a completely different name (like "cadets" for example), at least the gov't should award it a charter and give it the same access as the BSA enjoys (assuming the organization is just as responsible otherwise).
Note: Groups like the 4H Club and the Boys and Girls Club are not a good comparison. The BSA enjoys a special status, as they seem to be a pre-military boys organization.
I don't know for a fact, but I'd be willing to bet that the Catholic War Veterans isn't open to non-Catholics.If so, their "endorsements" (or charters) should be revoked.
You are welcome to your opinion. Is this statement of your opinion, or is it a legal position that you can back up with legal references?
Would you want the gov't to award a congressional charter to an organization that denies admission to Christians but will sue to stop Christians from forming a similar organization?
No, but I'd support a Christian organization that sued to stop an organization that denied admission to Christians but used "Christian" in it's name. The BSA does not sue someone to prevent them from forming a similar organization. They sue them to stop them from using a similar name. There's a difference.
When the gov't awards a charter to an organization and awards its members with special favors, I consider that an endorsement.
The government gives the BSA no special favors; the access to federal services it gets are granted to many other organizations and thus are not unique or special. And I don't see why the BSA's policies should prevent them from having access to a method of trademarking their name and badges.
Forcing someone to change their name is not equivalent to forcing them out of business.
No. Just the opposite. The Assistant Scoutmaster involved in this suit, as both boy and man, consistently made an oath that starts as follows: "On my honor, I will do my best, to do my Duty to God". To do so when you don't believe in God seems to me to be dishonorable.
Such is your opinion, but others have explained to my satisfaction at least that you are wrong. The Pope, not noted to be an atheist, has held that acceptance of evolutionary theory is entirely consistent with Christianity. So have the leaders of most other religions. You certainly have the right to have a different opinion, but I don't agree, and neither do authorities accepted by most Christians (and most non-Christians, for that matter).
Any spiritual belief will do.
And I thought that the deity mentioned in the oath was once meant to be the Christian god and not some pagan god or Mother Earth or anything like that.
A common misconception. If you read the very first Boy Scout Handbook you can read a section where they accept Islam (quaintly called Mohammedeism at the time) and Native American beliefs as being part of spiritual beliefs acceptable to the BSA.
I'm sorry but this really looks as if being superstitious is a requirement of being a scout. Or am I wrong when I assume that the average Christian considers Paganism/Wicca, Mother Earth worship and other New Age stuff to be mere superstition? As far as I can tell, some even think Islam is just superstition (but hey, they can join the BSA).
I would not know what the average American considers Paganism, etc., as.
No. Please explain.
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