Posted on 01/03/2003 4:22:58 AM PST by The Duke
Lately, if you've been paying close attention, you will have noticed minor news coverage of two US pilots, involved in a friendly fire incident in Afghanistan, which resulted in the unfortunate deaths of four Canadian soldiers, being hung out to dry by their/our own US government.
U.S. Air Force Pilots ChargedSo I've got a couple of questions.Criminal charges have been brought against two U.S. Air Force pilots responsible for the friendly fire bombing of Canadians in Afghanistan in April 2002.
Four Canadian soldiers were killed and eight others injured when a U.S. F-16 fighter jet dropped a bomb on the Canadian soldiers who were on a nighttime ground training exercise near Kandahar.
(Click Here for remainder of article.)
First, where the heck is the outrage? I mean, for God's sake, does anyone honestly believe that these two US pilots intentionally bombed their comrades-in-arms on the ground? The guys who were keeping the Mad Mullahs with leftover sidewider missiles from shooting one up their own tailpipes? If the US were not the laughing stock of the sane world before then we certainly are now!
Second, exactly what must be going through the minds of our pilots who have been deployed to the Persian Gulf today? Should we have new seats installed on all our military aircraft in which designated lawyers must sit in order to pre-approve all bombs dropped?
Third, why have our leaders allowed one minute of this farce to take place? Do we need new leaders?
This issue desperately needs to be discussed on all the talk radio programs and, if we have one grain of gratitude for the risks that our military people are taking right now today, and for the sactifices they are making, then we'll all call our representatives and make our voices heard in support of two highly trained, professional Air Force warriors, who are being railroaded to satisfy the sanctimonious, character-less, hand-wringing ninnies living to our north!
I say FREE THE PILOTS AND PROSECUTE THE GENERALS!
Like most others on this thread, I have mixed emotions. I hate to see military personnel hung out to dry for political correctness, or as scapegoats for rotten ROE/procedure/doctrine/technology etc.
But CAS is there to support the ground combatants, and as such pilots have an OVERRIDING OBLIGATION to be absolutely damn positive of what they are engaging, especially in a relatively low (air) threat environment like OEF/Afghanistan. If in doubt, check fire.
Self defense is fine if the threat is legitimate, but even that is debatable in this case.
Jail may or may not be appropriate, but they certainly deserve some degree of punishment.
It is? Then maybe you can clarify what "stand by" means. And does the term "stand by" preclude a military combatant from defending himself. Also, please point out when the pilots were told there were friendlies in the area. And once you do that, explain how someone reading a transcript of an incident, while sitting at a computer at 1G and 0 knots can be excused for making an error, while a pilot strapped to an ejection seat in the 8th hour of a 10 hour mission cannot.
But you are assuming that somehow that backseater had access to information that no one else in the air that night had. Also, you are assuming that a pilot with several hundred of hours of combat experience in two different services, in three different combat theaters, who had dropped hundreds of air to ground munitions in all levels of threat environment, didn't care about his freedom, career or life.
Yes, the term "Stand BY" is very clear -- be it from a Combat Controller (As in this case), or a flight leader, or a drill Instructor, or an NCOIC, or a commander ... if you request permission to take an action and you receive "STAND BY" as the response - that translates to "Hold all action we are assessing the situation" -- military members are trained from day one as to the full and complete meaning of the Term "stand by"
Also, I didn't even mentioned that in addition the term "HOLD FIRE" was also used. The instructions to these pilots were VERY clear.
Now that said, their calling of "self-defense" is a mitigating factor. If the pilot truly felt his and his flights lives were in danger by inaction, then that can be used as a defense.
I take back the statement about "friendlies" , a rereading of the transcript shows that the actual term Friendlies was not used until after the bomb was dropped. BUT, I can garauntee that in their mission brief they were aware of Friendly forces being in the Kandahar Area. Now, being in hour number 8 of their flight is a mitigating factor to this, and will be used by their Defense team.
Finally - if someone sitting at Computer at 1 G and 0 Knots "Committed an Error" that resulted in the loss of 4 lives and multiple injuries - you can be assured that they would also be held accountable.
ONE THING TO NOTE : These officers have not been convicted -- this inquiry is just referring charges to an Article 32 hearing. I can pretty safely guess that some of these charges will be reduced during the Article 32, and some may even be dropped. Then it will go to Court Martial where the Pilots may be cleared by the panel. However, I think I can safely say that at the least there will be deriliction of duty, negligence, and disobeying an order charges at some point.
Now for the Curious - I am a 22 year AF NCO, and have been through Law of Armed Conflict, Rules of Engagement and combat training. I also served air crew in the Gulf War (As a Courier, but it was still considered an air crew position) and went through that ROE training.
The rules are quite clear -- when told to "Stand By" and "Hold Fire", you do exactly that. Their defense will be the calling of "Self-defense", but the burdon of proof will be on them to prove they were in danger.
Baloney. The term "stand by" has no specific military definition. It is commonly used in the aviation community as a way of saying "Uh, just a minute." It is NOT an order or anything similar. It is a radio stall technique. If your drill instructor or NCOIC ever responded with "stand by" when your life was on the line, it is HIGHLY unlikely, that you would "hold all action" while he assessed the situation. I can confidently say that the term "stand by" was not a part of MY military training.
"Now that said, their calling of "self-defense" is a mitigating factor. If the pilot truly felt his and his flights lives were in danger by inaction, then that can be used as a defense."
Bingo. And it was.
Look, these guys have been tried and convicted a thousand times in internet forums by guys like you, who have very little understanding of the complexities of the situation they faced. The guy who dropped the bomb that night has spent more time flying combat missions than almost any fighter pilot currently flying in the world. He was an instructor at the Navy's TopGun school, and the Air Force's equivalent Fighter Weapons School. He is the foremost expert in the topics we are discussing...and he committed an error that cost 4 good men their lives. With all due respect to your time in service, and your experience as an air courier during the Gulf War, you have NO IDEA what was going on that night over Afghanistan. I'm not trying to be personal by pointing out your incorrect reading of the transcript. I am simply trying to highlight how complicated the combat environment has become. Every day in Afghanistan was an exercise in tactics development. NOTHING was standard. B-52 CAS?!?! Who would have ever thought. But in the process of learning, bad things are going to happen. The Canadians weren't the first men to die in Afghanistan due to friendly fire. And unfortunately, I think we'll see in upcoming conflicts that they won't be the last. I'm sure the computer screen lawyers will be ready to pounce in the future too. I guess everyone has to have a hobby.
Seriously, I find it amazing how many contributors here are ready to hang these airmen - these fellow Americans who were responding to the atrocity of 9/11 - putting their lives on the line. I find it equally amazing how many here purport to know their very thoughts.
We're not at war yet, you'll know when we're *really* in a state of war when our troops suddenly become other than whipping boys for our worthless "political class".
Say, you wouldn't be a "trial lawyer", would ya? Or maybe, just maybe, you're one of those "generals"?
You aint been there, so monday morning quarterbacking suits you fine.
Bears repeating.
Poohbah - I was going to make a point-by-point response, but you nailed it.
Discipline never changes. In peace or in wartime, flight discipline is crucial. In both this case and Aviano, the crews lacked fundamental flight discipline.
On a related but very small point, I believe the only aircraft to operate over Bahgdad during the Gulf War were F-117's. That notwithstanding, some of the best bar stories I've heard from the Gulf War have come from 111 crews talking about dodging SAM's at 300'.
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