British clergy have doubts about virgin birth

The Telegraph via SMH ^ | December 23 2002

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More than a quarter of Church of England clergy do not believe in the virgin birth of Christ, a survey has found.

A poll of 500 clerics found that 27per cent privately reject the traditional story of Jesus's birth, which forms a key part of the Nativity.

The view of one Hampshire vicar was typical. "There was nothing special about his birth or his childhood - it was his adult life that was extraordinary," he said.

He declined to be named, saying: "I have a very traditional bishop and this is one of those topics I do not go public on. I need to keep the job I have got."

The survey, carried out for the London Daily Telegraph, will dismay traditionalists inside and outside the Church of England. Many of the sceptics who took part in the survey said the story of the virgin birth was a product of poor biblical translations and literary tradition rather than divine intervention.

The Rev Dr Keith Archer, of Salford, said: "It is not particularly important because it is a debatable translation of a Hebrew prophecy which first appeared in Isaiah."

Another vicar added: "Writers at the time used to stress a person's importance by making up stories about their early life. I think that is exactly what has happened here."

Most of those who doubt the virgin birth agreed they would be presiding over traditional Christmas services that stressed the miraculous nature of Christ's birth.

Dr Archer said: "We will be having a traditional service because that is what people expect and enjoy. There are times and places for this debate."

A colleague added: "I do not believe in the virgin birth but I would not argue for that point of view in a sermon because I simply don't believe it is that important an issue."

Traditionalists seized upon the survey's findings as evidence of a church in decline.

John Roberts, who heads the Lord's Day Observance Society, said: "If you take away the virgin birth you might as well take away the entire Christian message. The miracle of the Christian faith is that God came down to us. If you lose that miracle you lose the resurrection and everything else."

The survey did find some comfort for traditionalists: 64per cent of those arguing against the idea of a virgin birth still believed in some sort of resurrection of Christ, whether physical or otherwise.

[Phantom Lord]

There are a number of scholars who belive exactly as you have written. That Jesus did not die on the cross and was alive when he was taken down and 'left town'. Some even say he married and had children. And his wife... Mary Magdalin.

[aimhigh]

I guess it would be more "heroic" to just keep all of his doubts to himself? I agree that he should find a new job, quit this one, and then say what he thinks. But if everyone who had doubts about certain aspects of their faith was concidered a coward, only "heros" would be left. And their numbers would be very small.

Consider that this individual is a "leader", and doesn't believe God's word. The church is based on faith. This man lacks faith in God's word, yet pretends to believe. If the man can't confess his doubts, then he is a coward.

[pgyanke]

> "If I recall correctly the "virgin birth" is mentioned in some of the four gospels, but not all four. The "virgin birth" is actually an old pagan idea that was adopted by the Christians to fulfill prophecy."

The prophecy was around long before the miracle. Christians didn't write history after Christ, they referred to history as evidence of His nature. Nice try.

> "The curious thing about Jesus' life is that he wrote not a thing. You would think if his mission was really that important he would have written down his message and instructed people to make copies."

As Jesus hangs on the cross, dying for the sins of man, He is heard to say, "Can someone please bring me a pen?"

> "The central tenet of Christianity is the resurrection..."

Exactly! See your previous sentence.

> "Also, there is some issue as to whether or not Jesus was really dead when he was removed from the cross. Most men languished for 2 or 3 days when crucified. He expired in 6 hours. Did Pontius Pilate make a deal with the Christians? He would "crucify" Jesus to satisfy the Jews, but bring him down before death on the agreement (perhaps) that Jesus would leave town forever."

And the spear in his side was just to make it look good?

1) Jesus was beaten severely before his crucifixion and did expire rapidly... so what? I've studied Roman history. Some could linger for more than a day... not most. Those who lingered were helped to linger to not let them off early. Crucifixion is horrible enough in action but death is primarily due to slow asphyxiation. Given his loss of blood due to the flagellation and fatique from the other beatings, I have no problem with the timing of His demise.

2) Regardless of how long He had hung on the cross, He would have had a hard time visiting with His old buds without a long recuperation... three days just wouldn't do it and the Gospels are pretty clear that He did appear to His apostles and visit with them beginning immediately after the resurrection.

[Protagoras]

I have long contended that many of the clergy congregants are there because they like pomp and ritual (which you don't get as a social worker) not because they are Christian.

I edited that to make it a tad different.

[drjoe]

He declined to be named, saying: "I have a very traditional bishop and this is one of those topics I do not go public on. I need to keep the job I have got."


Ya know, I'm gonna get kind of pissed off about this sort of thing. When did a holy vocation turn into a 'job"?

[federalisthokie]

Its hard to set an example for your flock if you are "living a lie".

[Protagoras]

I don't disagree with you, except that people go through periods of doubts, all people. He should have kept them to himself until he was sure they wouldn't change, and then resigned.

[TLBSHOW]

they are all fakes and should be put out of the church

[Protagoras]

Its hard to set an example for your flock if you are "living a lie".

I agree, and it is widespread. But I advocated that he resign so we aren't in disagreement.

[pgyanke]

> "Better to live a lie until you can make other arrangements I suppose."

Priests are supposed to guide the faithful in their faith. Living a lie until you can make other arrangements is absolutely heretical and sinful. Such people need our prayers. They also need to be removed from positions where they can warp other's views of their religion.

Having an opinion is fine. Disbelieving your own faith is beyond the pale for a practicing priest and he should cease practicing.

[Protagoras]

There are a number of scholars who belive exactly as you have written.

A number? Scholars? We have just entered into "spin city".

I know a "scholar" who belived in Santa Claus.

[Fudd]

Also, there is some issue as to whether or not Jesus was really dead when he was removed from the cross. Most men languished for 2 or 3 days when crucified. He expired in 6 hours.

Let's use a little common sense. Jesus was beaten and flogged, nailed to a tree, hung for six hours, then was speared in the side by a soldier to make sure he was dead. He was thrown in a hole in the ground. The New England Journal of Medicine looked at this a number of years ago, and concluded that the injuries Jesus received would have killed a man.

Did Pontius Pilate make a deal with the Christians? He would "crucify" Jesus to satisfy the Jews, but bring him down before death on the agreement (perhaps) that Jesus would leave town forever.

Being picky, there were no "Christians" at the time of the ressurection, only the disciples and some other followers. Being realistic, why would PP make a deal with eleven uneducated Jews from the sticks? He sold Jesus out to the temple priests to keep the peace in Judea. What would PP gain from an elaborate hoax to save some Jew who would probably cause more trouble if he stayed alive?

[Phantom Lord]

Disagreeing with a "scholar" does not mean that they are not scholars. There are plenty of scholars I disagree with on any number of things, but that doesnt change what they are.

[Protagoras]

Living a lie until you can make other arrangements is absolutely heretical and sinful.

Yes you are right, every clergyman should immediately resign the precise moment that such doubts occur to them. And if they later discard the idea and regain their senses, they could easily just return. < /sarcasm>

The correct course of action would be to take a sabbatical and search your soul, then take the proper course of action based on what decision you came to.

Such people need our prayers.

Amen

[Dajjal]

A real example for sceptics: St. Thomas the Doubter.

[Wings-n-Wind]

The last thing the angel said to young Mary was....

With God, nothing is impossible... (Luke 2:35-37)

Too many of us have responded, and their lives changed completely by the promises of God fulfilled in the testimony of Jesus Christ. We have seen not only the miracles of conversion, but healing and deliverance... just as he promised.. and had too many prayers answered NOT to believe-- just as it is written.

Perhaps these 25%+ need to consider another line of work.

BTW there ARE good things happening in the Church of England; thousands have come to Christ through the ministry of Nicky Gumbel and the ALPHA Course...

Regards & blessings...
Wings

[Protagoras]

I have seen many of the so called scholars you refer to but they all use the same tactic. Namely, they speculate based on opinions but have nothing to base it on except their preconcieved notions. Decidely non-scholarly.

[Marysecretary]

Well, how about taking a poll of American ministers? I'll bet a large majority of them don't believe in the Virgin birth either.

[eastsider]

A lengthy but informative read. Thank you.

And a blessed Christmas to you and yours!

[pgyanke]

> "Yes you are right, every clergyman should immediately resign the precise moment that such doubts occur to them. And if they later discard the idea and regain their senses, they could easily just return. < /sarcasm>"

Snippy today, aren't we?

No one's talking about doubts, we all have them. This "priest" stated clearly in the article that there was nothing special about Jesus until his ministry. That sure flies in the face of Old Testament prophecy and New Testament history. If he has that great a disagreement in his faith, he should seek other "employment."

By his own words, this is just a job for him. That attitude is sure to alienate many of the souls he was "employed" to shepherd. Better to not have a shepherd for the flock than to have a shepherd driving his sheep over a cliff.