The best tank in the world?

World's Armed Forces Site ^ | 13 November 2002 | Maverick

[sonofatpatcher2]

What do you all think is the best tank in the world, now and before of cause.

I´m from Germany so for me it´s clear. The Leopard 2A5 ist the best tank the world has ever known. We also produced some great tanks like the Tiger or Panther, for Expert´s the Henschel Sturmtiger and the Köngistiger are the ancestors of all modern tanks and the Us and Russia have stolen our ideas.

[spetznaz]

I am sure the Chieftain, as well as the current top of the line British Tank the Challenger, have both seen battle. For example the Challenger was chewing up Iraqi iron coffins (oops, i mean tanks) in the Gulf War together with the M1A1.

And i like your Armani suits with different colors analogy since i believe that is basically what is present.

Anyways here are some pics of the various tanks. Notice they all look rather similar externally, and internally they ahve systems that in some cases are nigh identical, and in all cases perform the same task with a level of efficacy that is generally at the same level (not exactly at the same level, but generally so). Including the software.

Challenger (British)

Lecrec (France)

Leopard 2 (Germany)

M1A2 Abrams (Who else?)

Merkava 4 (Yisrael)

[chilepepper]

...How could such savages produce such tanks...

Easy, the Soviets were smart enough to hire an American, if I'm not mistaken, by the name of Christie.

The US Army wasn't interested in his advanced designs and the result was the T34.

[11B3]

As an Infantryman, I hold no favorites among armor. They're all nothing but rolling coffins to me. If you want a good video example of how to reduce a T-72 to fragments that you can put in your pocket, go check out this link:

http://www.strategypage.com/gallery/images/JavelinLiveFireVsT72.mpg

The missile being fired is the new Javelin - makes me feel sorry for all those A-Rab tankers wearing their feces soiled bedsheets and flip-flops. NOT!

[VaBthang4]

You're preaching to the choir. :o)

[VaBthang4]

I stand corrected...

"Challenger"

;o) Thanks for the discretion.

[Gorzaloon]

The main gun barrels are used to age fine Roquefort and Brie.

No, No! It is a big breadmaker!

You can tell by the shape of the loaves of French Bread! And I bet a most of them are about 105mm to 155 mm in diameter, so this must be PROOF!

The Brie dispenser is mounted in the front of the tank, near the bottom, between the treads.

In Battle, when the tank is shifted into Reverse, and the throttle is opened to "Full Retreat, Alors, all ees lost" , the brie runs out of this little hole, and is left as a trail....

(Oh, are we having fun with this one...)

[sonofatpatcher2]

Ok, Doc? Is this someone you know, or a pic you got off the internet?

If the former, you lucky dog!

[spetznaz]

;o) Thanks for the discretion

LOL

Glad you noticed! LOL

Honestly the reason i did that is because i knew some other freeper might notice it, and then send you some silly lil' acerbic rant! After all there are several on FR who seem to just be in the forum to attack other freepers.

[PsyOp]

"We also produced some great tanks like the Tiger or Panther, for Expert´s the Henschel Sturmtiger and the Köngistiger are the ancestors of all modern tanks and the Us and Russia have stolen our ideas."

Now just a darn secoond there my fine German friend. The Panther and Tiger lines both used Christie suspensions (an American design that we shunned at the time, but which Russian designers loved), copied from Russian T-34 tanks.

In fact, those tanks were designed to counter the T-34, which was making SaurKraut out German Mark III's and IV's. The T-34 had heavier sloped armor; wide, weight dispersing treads, that were easy to replace; and the superior Christie suspension - all of which design features were improved on and incorporated into the Panther and Tiger models. But even they had a match in the t-34/85 "Stalin" variant.

By the end of the war the Russians were making tanks that could deal with the best of German armor, but most came too late for anything definative to be said in that regard (there weren't many engagements with late model Russian armor and heavy German armor). The Panther and Tiger tanks were the undisputed stars of the war, but only by building on Russian and American designs.

Where German engineering really shined and made its impact in tank design was in armament. The high-velocity 76 and 88mm tank guns repeatedly made the difference in favor of the Germans in armor engagements - even with all other things being equal.

If I had to say which was the best all around tank of WWII I would have to go with the Panther V 88mm variant.

[PsyOp]

"I think the T-34 is considered the best tank of WW2"

Only if you are talking about the up-gunned T-34/85 "Stalin" variant. it could hold its own with the Panthers and Tigers and was a bit more reliable.

[PsyOp]

for suvivability on the battlefield I'd have to put the Abrams first, Merkava second and then the Challenger. I give the high marks for the design which puts the engine up front. It makes it highly surviveable for frontal hits, but lacks some of the survival tricks of the Anrams, like blow out compartments for ammo and the such.

[Petronski]

In Battle, when the tank is shifted into Reverse, and the throttle is opened to "Full Retreat, Alors, all ees lost" , the brie runs out of this little hole, and is left as a trail....

Truly, I am laughing out loud!

[Doctor Raoul]

Ever walk the "Mile of Tanks" there?

[iopscusa]

Best Tank in WWII: P-51D Mustang with drop TANKS-The "D" model carried six .50 cal. machine guns instead of the four mounted in the "B's"; and other refinements, such as moving the wing forward slightly and providing for rocket launchers, were included.

[biblewonk]

Tanks are good for killing just about anything.

Anything within it's sights. That's the rub, by the time the tanks are anywhere near any good targets they have been blown up by missiles and bombs.

[jboot]

Ah, the thread's dead, but here goes...

Now just a darn secoond there my fine German friend. The Panther and Tiger lines both used Christie suspensions (an American design that we shunned at the time, but which Russian designers loved), copied from Russian T-34 tanks.

The Panther and Tiger used the Henschel torsion bar interleaved suspension. It was heavier and took up much more room than a Christie suspension, and was not a copy of the Christie. It provided slightly superior cross-country mobility, but the advantage was never realized because both Panther and Tiger were underpowered for their weight. After the war, the Germans sensibly selected the US M46 Pershing chassis as the basis for their postwar tanks.

The Tiger 1 was developed between 1940 and 1941 and borrowed nothing from any Soviet tank. The Panther was developed as a replacement for the Panzer III and IV starting in '41, but saw a re-design with sloped armor as a result of combat experience with the T-34.

If I had to say which was the best all around tank of WWII I would have to go with the Panther V 88mm variant.

While the Jagdtpanther was not by the strictest definition an MBT, I agree with you. It was definately the best Panther variant. Now, had the Panther F with the 75/100mm gun been completed, that would have been something to beat!

[PsyOp]

"The Panther and Tiger used the Henschel torsion bar interleaved suspension. It was heavier and took up much more room than a Christie suspension, and was not a copy of the Christie."

The Christie was the first Torsion bar system, Henschel improved upon it. Captured T-34's were brought back to Germany an gone over by German tank designers for the purpose of study and design incorporation. Read Speer's diaries.

The T-34 was so respected that many captured T-34's were repainted with German colors and driven German tank crews. By the same token, Russians who were able to capture Panthers and Tigers were awarded medals, and the tanks turned over to crack Russian crews as a prestige item.

The radical departures in design that the Panther and Tigers took from the Mark III's and IV's owe much to the T-34. I understand the reluctance of any German to admit they copied anything (especially from Russians), but this point is not arguable. The words "copied" or "stolen" with regard to this issue may be objectionable and imprecise, but the "borrowing" of design elements did happen as I stated. The historical record, when you go deep enough into it, is clear on that.

That German engineers saw the benefits of these design elements, improved on them, and then created some of the most lethal tanks of the time is not an insult. It is, if anything, a tribute to their intelligence and foresight. Had the T-34 not come into being, follow on designs to the Mark IV would have been different from the Panther's and Tigers we know today.

[jboot]

The Christie was the first Torsion bar system, Henschel improved upon it.

The Henschel torsion bar system first appeared in the VK3601 prototype chassis in 1938 (see http://www.achtungpanzer.com/heu.htm). Although it is similar to the Christie suspension, and owes to Christie the germ of its design, it was not copied from a T-34. More correctly, both suspensions share a common ancestor, but the Russian suspension is nearer to its parent than the German.

Captured T-34's were brought back to Germany an gone over by German tank designers for the purpose of study and design incorporation. Read Speer's diaries

That is true and no one can deny the profound effect that the T-34 had on the design of German tanks, especially the Panther and the Tiger Ausf. B (Tiger 2). My point was that these design changes were primarily structural and not mechanical. The Tiger, and especially the Panther and the Tiger 2 can be said to be influenced by (or even modelled on) the T-34, but are not copies (for a true copy, see the case of the Tupolev TU-4: http://www.ctrl-c.liu.se/misc/ram/tu-4.html).

Had the T-34 not come into being, follow on designs to the Mark IV would have been different from the Panther's and Tigers we know today.

I also agree. It is likely that the Germans would never have even developed the Panther, and fielded the Tiger (or a similar vehicle based on the VK3601) in 1943 or early '44, but almost certainly without sloped armor.

[PsyOp]

"The Tiger, and especially the Panther and the Tiger 2 can be said to be influenced by (or even modelled on) the T-34, but are not copies."

That reflects the point I was trying to make all along. As for Henchel's design dating to '38, that is true, too. Do you remember where Germany was sending many of its officers for training then and earlier? The Soviet Union (part of an agreement Hitler made with Stalin in order to hide the extent of his military preparations from the west). The T-34 was seen and reported on prior to '38, but without combat data to back it up other than remarks on its mobility, which I am sure were noted by German designers. I also seem to recall that the Germans had shown some interest in the Christie patent before he sold the rights to the Russians.

Its a fine line between "copied" and "influenced". Short of a direct copy like the Russians made of the C-47 (DC-3), at what point does "influenced" become "copied"? That's an argument without end.

Bottom line here though is that we essentially agree.

[jboot]

Let us agree to agree, then. ;-)