The Miracle At Lepanto...

unknown ^ | October 24, 1998 | unknown

[liberallarry]

Bartolome De Las Casas, The Black Legend

[liberallarry]

VIEWERS & THE VIEWED

[liberallarry]

The Genesis of the Black Legend

You get the idea. The English and the French are not the originators of this stuff. And the moderns trying to refute it are not political correctniks...but rather Spaniards, Latin-Americans, and Catholics.

[Polybius]

La Mancha means "the sleeve" does it not?

No. "Manga" means sleeve. "Mancha" means stain but is also a region of Spain. (See map below)

The title lent itself to irony with the double meaning........a sort of "Don Quixote of Dogpatch".

Comunidad de Castilla-La Mancha

[liberallarry]

The Myth of the Spanish Inquisition

A Catholic view.

[muawiyah]

All of this stuff gets back to everybody's grandfather, a man named Rene of Anjou. Most of European history from the mid 1400s through to the end of the 1500s can be considered to be little more than bickering within his extended family.

[livius]

Thanks for your replies! Sorry for getting so annoyed, but I do hate attacks upon Spain! Certainly, I am not defending many things about Spanish civilization, then or subsequently, but I think an enormous amount of good was done by Spain's colonization of the New World. Latin America has, however, never done as well as North America for two reasons: one was the somewhat medieval Spanish economic system, and the other was the very fact that they converted the indigenous population and included them in the society rather than exterminating them. This has, to some extent, been a handicap, particularly now, when the politically correct view of the virtues of the noble savage have arisen to defeat things such as Spanish literacy programs, etc. It somehow seems to run together with a sort of Che Guevara poster Marxism. Look at Chiapas for a view of this.

The Spanish treated the Indians they way they treated their own poor and working classes. This means they didn't treat them very well, but it was more of an economic thing than anything else. And the Spanish were very much into analyzing their ethnic backgrounds, originally because of taxation (various groups paid more or less, Jews did not pay certain taxes, etc.), and then later because of the Inquisition. Again, the Inquisition had two phases, the first one religiously motivated, and the second one (under Felipe II) entirely political, but so out of control that Rome was unable to stop it, even though the Pope repeatedly tried to do so.

And yes, Bartolome de las Casas certainly added much fuel to the leyenda negra, for reasons of his own (the Spanish have always responded to drama, and he felt he would get more money and assistance through this pitch). Somehow, in the popular mind, this all became a stew of misinformation. The Spanish, for example, never hunted "witches" - witch hunts were something that, for some reason, occurred almost entirely in Protestant areas, particularly Germany - yet the Spanish often get blamed for it. And of course, the new Spain, where even the center-right party would be left-wing by our standards, has many Spaniards all too eager to reject their past and declare that before 1968, they were all miserable benighted wretches.

In any case, yes, you're right, it is off topic. But it was an entertaining sally!

[liberallarry]

Ah yes, the attempt of modern day political correctniks to ressurect a mythical Pre-Conquest Indian society devoid of serious faults. Ugh!

My purpose was never to denigrate Spanish society because of its alleged cruelties. Rather I wanted to avoid demonization of traditional Islam. Cruelty and other human faults are all too common among all of us.

I am not so silly as to believe all societies are equal or war can always be avoided. But at least we can attempt to be clear-headed about what we are doing. And to see the tragedy of human existance and conflict.

Today Islam is a medievil society desperately trying not to be overwhelmed in a confrontation with a much more powerful, modern Western one. It's doubtful they will succeed. Nor does there seem to be anyway for either side to avoid the conflict. That's a tragedy.

[Calamari]

from 12,000 to 15,000 Christian rowers, slaves on the Turkish galleys,.....

Wonder if they helped throw the battle to the christian fleet?

[F-117A]

Wonder if they helped throw the battle to the christian fleet?

Good question!

[Calamari]

OK

I kind of doubt that they were totally committed to an islamic victory.

[F-117A]

I kind of doubt that they were totally committed to an islamic victory.

LOL

[Redleg Duke]

"A ridiculous lie. The Spanish were forbidden (by the Pope and by their King) to enslave the Indians, and basically treated them rather well. Perhaps a modern cultural relativist wouldn't like the Spanish approach, but I do: they taught the Indians Christianity, baptized them - and then intermarried."

Man! You really subscribe to the Goebles "Big Lie" Theory, don't you! Keep on smokin' that controlled substance...it is the only thing that makes your quote valid...in your own mind!

[Redleg Duke]

"In fact, one of the main objectives in their explorations was the extension of the Catholic faith - which they did do, and quite effectively."

Yes, they sure did...just like the Moslems...by the sword! The Spanish were driven by greed and avarice and used the "extension of the faith" as a smoke screen. The destruction of cultures, histories and societies "In the Name of the Pope" is an enduring black mark on the Roman Catholic Church and Christianity.

You attempt to defend the indefensible. Next, you will be railing against anyone reporting pedophilia committed by Priests.

[Pliney the younger]

Dear Mua,
It was my understanding that the Christian Nation (I think it was called Utramire (SP?) lasted for some 250 years. Am I wrong? I remember reading that in A HISTORY OF THE CHRISTIAN CRUSADES about 10 years ago.

[Pliney the younger]

My Friends,

Our GOD of Love, taught us that at times we should turn the other cheek.

But he also taught us (in Luke 15 or 17) to remember to check and see that we are well armed (“PETER HOW MANY SWORDS DO WE HAVE AMONG US?”)

Just maybe, praying for peace AND for an adequate number of quality arms, is best in times of worldly danger!

Love,

Pliny the Younger

[muawiyah]

Moe like 128 years. Actually, descendants of the original Crusaders still live in the Levant, mostly in Lebanon.

[snippy_about_it]

Please add me to your ping list.

[Lizard_King]

Sorry Sheik, "the sleeve" would be La Manga

[Maedhros]

The Ottomans were actually tolerant in religious matters.