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BURNING THE CONSTITUTION: SECRET COURT OKS SPYING ON AMERICANS
CAPITOLBLUE.COM ^ | 11-19-02 | REUTERS

Posted on 11/19/2002 5:54:56 AM PST by KLT

Burning the Constitution
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Secret court OKs government spying on Americans
By REUTERS
Nov 19, 2002, 07:32

In a victory for the Bush administration, a secretive appeals court Monday ruled the U.S. government has the right to use expanded powers to wiretap terrorism suspects under a law adopted after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.

The ruling was a blow to civil libertarians who say the expanded powers, which allow greater leeway in conducting electronic surveillance and in using information obtained from the wiretaps and searches, jeopardize constitutional rights.

In a 56-page ruling overturning a May opinion by the secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, the three-judge appeals court panel said the Patriot Act gave the government the right to expanded powers.

Sweeping anti-terror legislation, called the USA Patriot Act and signed into law in October last year after the hijacked plane attacks, makes it easier for investigators andprosecutors to share information obtained by surveillance and searches.

In the May ruling, the seven judges that comprise the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court unanimously told the government it had gone too far in interpreting the law to allow broad information sharing.

The Justice Department appealed, saying the order limited the kind of coordination needed to protect national security.

Attorney General John Ashcroft hailed Monday's ruling and said he was immediately implementing new regulations and working to expedite the surveillance process.

"The court of review's action revolutionizes our ability to investigate terrorists and prosecute terrorist acts," he said. "This decision does allow law enforcement officials to learn from intelligence officials and vice versa."

FOURTH AMENDMENT ISSUES

Civil liberties groups, which had urged the appeals court -- comprised of three appeals court judges named by Supreme Court Chief Justice William Rehnquist -- to uphold the court's order, slammed the ruling.

"We are deeply disappointed with the decision, which suggests that this special court exists only to rubber-stamp government applications for intrusive surveillance warrants," said Ann Beeson of the American Civil Liberties Union.

The groups had argued that broader government surveillance powers would violate the Fourth Amendment which protects against unreasonable searches and seizures.

But the appeals court said the procedures as required under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act were reasonable.

"We think the procedures and government showings required under FISA, if they do not meet the minimum Fourth Amendment warrant standards, certainly come close," the judges wrote in their ruling, which was partially declassified and published.

"We, therefore, believe firmly ... that FISA as amended is constitutional because the surveillances it authorizes are reasonable."

Ashcroft said the government would uphold the Constitution. "We have no desire whatever to, in any way, erode or undermine the constitutional liberties here," he said.

The appeal is the first since the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act court and appeals court were created in 1978 to authorize wiretap requests in foreign intelligence investigations. Under the procedures, all hearings and decisions of the courts are conducted in secret.

The appeal hearing was not public, and only the Justice Department's top appellate lawyer, Theodore Olson, presented arguments.

Although the court allowed "friend of the court" briefs to be filed by civil liberties groups and the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers, since the Justice Department was the only party the ruling can likely not be appealed.

"This is a major Constitutional decision that will affect every American's privacy rights, yet there is no way anyone but the government can automatically appeal this ruling to the Supreme Court," Beeson said.

© Copyright 2002 by Capitol Hill Blue


TOPICS: Activism/Chapters; Breaking News; Constitution/Conservatism; Government; News/Current Events
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To: Mitchell
Isn't it required that a law meet the standards of the Constitution, not come close?

Yes, but while wording was unfortunate, the fact is that the 4th amendment only requires that searches be "reasonable", with out defining that term, and that warrents must be supported by probable cause. Probable cause is required by before the warrents under the FISA can be issued, and the court determined that searches conducted under the rules in question would be "reasonable", so the 4th amendment requirements were indeed met in the eyes of the appeals court. Furthermore one additional requirement, that is a probable cause, must be met, namely that there must be probable cause to believe that the persons to be searched or survielled are agents of a *foreign* power. That doesn't necessarily mean a govenment, but they can't be individuals acting on their own, nor can they merely be representatives or members of some domestic group.

As far as that goes, look at the "probable" cause that the BATF used to get the warrent for the Waco raid. The only facts in evidence even remotely indicative of (allegedly) criminal activity, were neighbors' reports of rapid fire coming from the Mt. Carmel Church and residence area.(when combined with the lack of a record of a tax stamp for full auto weaponry being on record for anyone there) Everything else in the justification for the warrent was completely lawful activity. But the judge, in a non-secret court, granted the warrent anyway.

The fact is, that like gun control, laws, including the Constitution, restricting the government only apply when good people are in control. When the crooks and thugs get in, anything goes, as we unfortunately know from the period Jan 1993- Jan 2001.

121 posted on 11/19/2002 5:24:33 PM PST by El Gato
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To: Sparta
What soldiers what checkpoints? I do believe that paranoia has taken over in this discussion. But I think that most Americans would agree that if a terrorist was known to be in some particular vicinity, they would not mind going through a checkpoint in order to capture the enemy. We might grumble like we do about sobriety checkpoints but hey...a little pain now is not much to ask in order to capture the enemy. After all, are we doing battle with an enemy or are we not? If civil libertarian extremists are so upset about this legislation why didn't anyone complain about the government shutting down international banking operations feeding money to Bin Laden's organization?
122 posted on 11/19/2002 7:19:30 PM PST by eleni121
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To: eleni121
If it's standard police checkpoints with probable cause(the checkpoints set up to catch the beltway sniper), I have no problem. But, I have a problem with soldiers and policemen setting up checkpoints just to check for IDs.
123 posted on 11/19/2002 7:23:27 PM PST by Sparta
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To: AAABEST
"Why is nobody in government, or this adiminstration talking about the simple solution here? Which is to close our borders."

Sorry, we need migrants to pluck the lungs from chickens at mega poultry supply...and who would we give our money to when we purchase that "Slurpy" at 711?...If Bush lets these invading colonizers stay he has lost my vote.

124 posted on 11/19/2002 7:28:24 PM PST by alphadog
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To: KLT
"There's no doubt, we need to find the animals that are capable of blowing us up again (and no doubt, they are here)....but that doesn't include us...and all other law abiding Americans

They are here...and so are the people who invented "America's Goldstein"

125 posted on 11/19/2002 7:44:57 PM PST by alphadog
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To: verity
"The deceased Ben Franklin certainly had no concept of WMD. Thus 'a little temporary Safety' is not applicable!

He also had no concept of computers, the internet, TV or talk radio...so we should suspend the first amendment?...just a thought.

126 posted on 11/19/2002 7:58:16 PM PST by alphadog
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To: eleni121
"Only terrorists need fear from this legislation.

"Terrorist" anybody who could cause harm to another...think about that for awhile...

127 posted on 11/19/2002 8:14:41 PM PST by alphadog
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To: alphadog
"Terrorist" anybody who could cause harm to another...think about that for awhile...

This whole discussion scares me silly. I thought conservatives were smarter than liberals. It seems that many of them have no concept of the need for firm constitutional limits. Folks, If you allow a bad law because it looks like a good idea at the time, it will stay with us and ultimately be enforced by your worst enemy. How would you like this in effect when Hitlery becomes Pres in 2008?

The constitution means what it says and must be enforced all the time or we are doomed. I am proud to be a Libertarian who understands this. I am really scared and disappointed that the conservatives do not.

128 posted on 11/19/2002 8:26:39 PM PST by Mike4Freedom
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To: taxcontrol
A diary should always be inadmissable because you are not required to testify against yourself. In fact it is your right not to do so.
129 posted on 11/19/2002 8:52:08 PM PST by Demidog
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To: eleni121
Only terrorists need fear from this legislation.

Right. And the tooth fairy comes on Friday.

130 posted on 11/19/2002 8:53:21 PM PST by Demidog
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To: justshutupandtakeit
You have lost no "essential Liberty" as a result of the implementation of this Act.

What about the right to privacy and the right to be free from unreasonable searches? Are those not essential?

131 posted on 11/19/2002 8:58:04 PM PST by Demidog
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To: DAnconia55
If Osama hadn't existed, the government would have had to invent him....

They did invent him. Osama started out fighting with the Mujahaden and was trained by Pakistan's ISI and the CIA.

Even his religious beliefs were instilled by the CIA and ISI.

132 posted on 11/19/2002 8:59:26 PM PST by Demidog
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To: mrsmith
FIRST the government must convince a judge beyond a reasonable doubt that the target is a foreign power or an agent of a foreign power.

Since the judges see the "evidence" in secret courts and the alleged cause material is "national security" material and thus not availabe to the defendent or the public, how would you verify that they are not just rubber stamping prosecutor's requests?

133 posted on 11/19/2002 9:02:40 PM PST by Demidog
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To: Russell Scott
If they start abusing it the courts will shut it down in a hurry.

Right. Like they shut down asset forteiture and gun control.

134 posted on 11/19/2002 9:05:07 PM PST by Demidog
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Comment #135 Removed by Moderator

To: Demidog
Pretty much all warrants are given without input or review by the subject.
The subject of a FISA search can challenge it after the fact if there is a trial like anyone else.

Some or most of the reasons for the warrant would probably be "sensitive", and the trial court would have to deal with it as it thought best. At the least it would mean that two seperate judges ( the FISA judge and the judge at the trial) reviewed the basis for the warrant in camera.

136 posted on 11/19/2002 9:21:35 PM PST by mrsmith
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To: el_texicano; El Gato
Yes, the Fourth Amendment is somewhat subjective (what is "unreasonable"?). But if a court is going to rule that a law such as this one is Constitutional, I would expect them to say that it meets the standard of the Fourth Amendment, as the court interprets that amendment. But apparently this court ruled that the law is Constitutional because it "comes close" to meeting the standard of the Fourth Amendment.

That's not good enough. There shouldn't be a precedent saying that a law just has to come close to meeting the requirements of the Bill of Rights. If a court is going to rule that a law is Constitutional, the judges should have to be willing to say that it meets the requirements of the Bill of Rights. Period.

"Close" only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades -- certainly not in a legal decision, in a country governed by the rule of law.

137 posted on 11/19/2002 10:33:22 PM PST by Mitchell
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To: Mike4Freedom
good points
138 posted on 11/19/2002 10:49:16 PM PST by alphadog
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To: taxcontrol
It is a long tradition within the US court system that prosocution of an offense can not use "fruit from a tainted tree". In short, this means that evidence collected directly or subsequently from an improper source can not be used.

I disagree with this tradition; it is inherently unjust. Facts are facts--all should be admissible. The crime of illegal search should be prosecuted, but the facts must remain.

For example, the police conduct an illegal search of a person's house and find a diary. Within the diary is a detailed account of a crime providing details that only the killer could know. Under our current system, the diary would not be admissible due to the fact that the search itself was illegal. What the Patriot Act, and this ruling does, is remove that protection.

Good. Admit the evidence, prosecute the illegal search. But I think a wiretap is on or past the borderline of Constitutional protection. A phone call goes through a public network, as does e-mail; it is no longer in your home.

I see both sides of this arguement and beleive that a middle ground could be found. For instance, the evidence collected from a wiretap or other source should not be shared. However, if evidence of a crime was found during the monitoring, the intelligence gathering agency could then contact the FBI (or appropriate LEO) and act as an informant. "We have observed the following...." kind of stuff.

This would allow the LEO to then go and obtain a warrent and legally establish their own monitoring. Yes it is a bit of a delay and yes it would be double monitoring, but I'm willing to pay thoses costs in order to have a SOLID legal case and not trample on the rights of the people.

What does the average citizen have to fear from a wire tap or email monitoring? If they do nothing illegal, there is nothing there. This morning on NPR, the argument was made against this as a violation of citizens' privacy and the assistant US Attorney General Trinh (spelling?) said, "Why would we go after private citizens? We have enough work to do with suspects." One of the problems of intelligence work is the volume of data involved. Why would one add extraneous data?

None the less, I agree this could be misused by the government. I want a sunset clause on this law. The Constitution guarantees privacy as an implied right. Privacy should only be usurped in event of a national emergency, such as a war; like the one in which we are engaged. Even with a war, I would not allow home searches without a warrant. I barely tolerate phone tapping and email snooping. I can understand those who don't tolerate this.

139 posted on 11/20/2002 5:21:09 AM PST by Forgiven_Sinner
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Comment #140 Removed by Moderator


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