In historic speech, Pope urges Italians to have more children to reverse declining birth rate

Associated Press ^ | 11-14-02 | NICOLE WINFIELD

[Oldeconomybuyer]

ROME (AP) --

[TopQuark]

Be fair: the same phenomenon is here in the U.S. since 1970s, and everywhere else in the industrialized world.

[sinkspur]

"A gesture of clemency toward prisoners through a reduction of their sentences would be clear evidence of a sensitivity which would encourage them in their own personal rehabilitation for the sake of a constructive reinsertion into society," the pope said.

The Catholic Church, frankly, has little to say in the area of criminal justice.

The Holy Father opposes capital punishment and, now, appears to advocate periodic sentence reductions.

What's next? One free rape? No penalty for five-finger discounts under a grand?

Birth rates always decline as countries become more economically secure. That's just the way it is.

I remember the irony of Pat Buchanan encouraging folks in countries with predominantly white populations to have more children when Pat never had any children himself.

[mewzilla]

The Pope shouldn't worry. If the Catholic church ever runs out of parishoners to hit up for money, they can always sell some of the contents of the Vatican Museums on e-bay. They've got quite a stash.

[steve-b]

In the speech, the pontiff also called on authorities to show prisoners "a gesture of clemency" by reducing their sentences

I must say that His Holiness might be better advised to call on people not to commit crimes in the first place.

[OldFriend]

Think I saw data showing that Italy and Germany have zero popoulation growth. VERY bad news for the economies of those countries.

[roderick]

Italy's economic future is at risk because its shrinking work force will be unable to support its aging population without an influx of migrant workers.

Declining native birth rates are a problem throughout Europe and much of the western world. What the Arabs could not conquer by force is now threatened by unrestrained immigration.

[machman]

You gotta remember Islam's view of thier investment horizion.

As "the center of gravity of the Western world [shifted] from the Mediterranean to the Atlantic seaboard," a series of defeats marked the turning point of Islamic/Ottoman fortunes in the East.‡ The first came in 1571 when, in a three-hour battle, a Christian fleet "composed of 208 Venetian, Spanish, Genoese, and papal galleys" destroyed 90 percent of the Ottoman fleet of 260 ships in Greece's Bay of Lepanto. For the next hundred years, the Turks tried to regain their momentum and expand deeper into Europe. But they suffered a horrendous defeat in 1683 trying to take Vienna and, weakened by that setback, lost several other cities, including Athens, to the Christians. At this time Russia, under Peter the Great, joined the Holy Alliance against the Turks; the inexorable 250-year crushing of the Islamic/Ottoman empire by the Christian empire had begun.§

1683 was just a "fleshwound", a minor setback on the way to glorious victory.

[Lockbox]

Italy’s newest resident, former U.S. President Bill Clinton, who just moved from Singapore, was quoted as saying, “I’ve never worked so hard.......”

[BlackElk]

You may disagree with Pat Buchanan's political views. I have voted for him but find myself disagreeing more with each passing day particularly with mad xenophobe disease and his attempted revival of 1930s-style ostrich foreign policy (isolationism). He could also give a well-deserved rest to the habit of racial preference expressed by his remark that 1000 Brits would fit in better than 1000 Zulu as Virginia citizens. Although I am partially English, I am also partially Irish and have generally imagined the Zulu quite admirable based on Islandwhana, Roark's Drift and on Mengisthu Buthelezi's their generally admirable track record in South Africa.

That having been said, however, it seems fairly obvious that Pat Buchanan does not seem to be the sort of fellow to personally birth control his way out of parenthood. [his peek-a-boo routines with the children in the pews at Old St. Mary's Tridentine Masses in DC are legend.] Nor does his wife Shelley seem to be that sort of woman.

I know, and I'll bet you do too, many fine couples who live with the tragedy of involuntary childlessness, unable to conceive a child. Some adopt. Some do not. Often these couples stick to their marriage vows, accept childlessness as God's will and deepen their own commitment to one another. Some are fortunate enough to adopt.

When Buchanan met and married his wife, she was a secretary at Nixon's law firm in New York, no socialite, just the woman he came to love and who came to love him. There has never been the slightest hint of misbehavior of an extramarital sort on the part of either one. In our society and, regrettably all too often in our own Church, their nearly forty-year marriage is an all-too rare and exemplary performance.

Your post consists of three parts: cheap shots against the pope's suggestion of some leniency toward prisoners. You are generally right policy-wise and tone deaf as to the public attitude owed by a deacon to a pope, much less this pope. Second, a general observation rooted in the effect of materialism on birth rates when, to turn things around, you were admirably non-bashful about fathering a number of children of your own; and third, cheap shots directed at Pat Buchanan and, by implication, his wife, Shelley. You can do better than this. You have done better than this. You will do better than this.

I despise George McGovern's politics but he never seemed likely to be a bad or ungenerous parent (other than bringing his babies up to be liberals). Neither have you. Neither has Pat Buchanan.

Finally, the Catholic Church has had much to say, most of it wiser as policy than this liberal aspect of JPII, about criminal justice. God is the author of justice. He is perfect justice. The Roman Catholic Church is the Church founded by Jesus Christ Himself and therefore God's own Church. Our Anglo-American system of criminal justice was established when England was still part of Christendom. Felonies reflect our truth as to mortal sin (the unforgiven felon is (or was) civilly dead and an outlaw. The unforgiven mortal sinner is spiritually dead and an excommunicant. Misdemeanors reflect our view of venial sin: no civil death/no spiritual death but either is in need of penance and punishment. Without God, government has the power of the knout but no authority.

[sitetest]

Dear sinkspur,

"Birth rates always decline as countries become more economically secure."

People in the United States generally enjoy more economic wealth and security than people in Italy. We have enjoyed greater wealth and security for longer than Italy. Yet, our birthrate is twice that of Italy.

Though there is some truth to what you said, sinkspur, it's only a general and relative truth, and perhaps not directly causal. I think it's more likely that a declining birthrate occurs as folks lose contact with their religious tradition, and become increasingly more secularized. I think that better explains the difference in birthrates between Italy and the United States.

Economic prosperity is certainly part of what can cause secularization, but it's unsatisfactory as the primary explanation.

Furthermore, there are economic, political, and social policies which can be integrated into a prosperous society which can reduce the effects of secularization, and also can effect birthrates in a positive way.

"I remember the irony of Pat Buchanan encouraging folks in countries with predominantly white populations to have more children when Pat never had any children himself."

I concur with BlackElk, here. You don't know what is the cause of childlessness for Mr. Buchanan.

As Catholic homeschoolers, we encounter lots of Catholics with lots of kids. It can be awkward for us in that we have only two sons. However, I don't owe these others an explanation. Our first didn't arrive until after we'd been married 11 years. My wife and I had given up our hope for children when he came along. That this raises eyebrows is not sufficient cause for me to share with them what it was like to have come to the conclusion that we would not have children.

That Mr. Buchanan, to the best of my knowledge, has never discussed this publicly tells me that his childlessness was not by choice.

Frankly, your comments here are more reminiscent of some recent comments by wild-eyed posters who believe that they can read mortal sin in the heart of every Catholic who has fewer than five children.


sitetest

[Salvation]

Natural Family Planning Bump!

[Salvation]

I don't appreciate your comments.

[Irisshlass]

Time Magazine...

"Search for the perfect church, if you will; when you find it, join it, and realize that on that day it becomes something less than perfect."

[Salvation]

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[wideawake]

Moron.