[Illbay]

Well, it's time to remind you Mugwump-types!

WE ARE AT WAR.

[DAnconia55]

And so we will be forever, with no limits on state power, and infinite justification of abuse if you were in charge.

[MetaAlpha]

I'm with you Bay, we're at war. So let's go get what we deserve. We rule.

[dirtboy]

Well, it's time to remind you Mugwump-types! WE ARE AT WAR.

Illbay, the feds have already shown they can't handle a modest investigative database. They have already shown they cannot move information within their organization in a timely manner, and instead often block it with PC concerns. So, above and beyond any Constitutional concerns, should I agree that the creation of a multi-petabyte "virtual, centralized grand database" is a good thing? I work in a terabyte universe, and from what I have seen of the feds, they can't handle a gigabyte universe.

The feds do not need more information, until they demonstrate they can adequately process the information streams they already have.

[Anchoragite]

"Well, it's time to remind you Mugwump-types!...."

Yeah. We're at war. To make sure we get the terrorists, turn in your weapons. Then only the terrorists will have weapons, and they'll be easier to spot. Yeah. And then, give up the vote, so that the terrorists can't compromise or sabotage our perfect system. And as soon as the war's over, trust that all will be returned to normal....

[Oh yeah, that's right. The war will never be over. It's a war on terrorism, not on specific terrorists. And terrorism will always be here -- if not from one extremist group, then from another....]

[per loin]

But is our war against Islam, or against the US Constitution?

[griffin]

"WE ARE AT WAR."

Yeah, precisely the motivation that the government used, according to Mr. Orwell, to justify their actions and get the 'Mugwumps' to not ask any questions.

Extract head before ur sphinkter spazums Ill.

[thepitts]

Do you really believe this is a good idea?

[Wonder Warthog]

"WE ARE AT WAR."

So what! We didn't need these kinds of measures during WWII or the Cold War, which were fought against more vicious and dangerous foes than Al-Queada. Why should we give up our fundamental civil rights under the Fourth Amendment now??

[Doctor Stochastic]

And the War will continue into the next President's term, whoever she may be.

[Mugwump]

"Well, it's time to remind you Mugwump-types!..."

...and he said we are at war. Gosh, I guess I should be flattered; my reputation precedes me.

And, yes, I loathe the very idea of that kind of surveillance on law-abiding citizens. War? This is unlike any war ever fought, and while I agree that some sacrifices may be necessary in the long run, having a faceless bureaucrat capable of tracking my every move isn't one of them, IMO.

[Dick Bachert]

As you read this, ask yourself this question: If America -- the IDEA, not the geograpghical place -- becomes indistinguishable from Cuba, China, North Korea, etc., -- haven't the bad guys accomplished their goal?

And if we do hurl our freedoms overboard in what will -- given the intel failures pre-911 -- almost certainly be a minimal increase in our "security," is America WORTH fighting and dying for?

I'm reminded of the words of others on the subject:

* "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither Liberty nor safety."
Benjamin Franklin, Pennsylvania Assembly, Nov. 11, 1755

* "While the people are virtuous, they cannot be subdued; but when they lose their virtue they will be ready to surrender their liberties to the first external or internal invader."
--Samuel Adams

* “At what point then is the approach of danger to be expected? I answer, if it ever reach us, it must spring up amongst us. It cannot come from abroad. If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide.”
A. Lincoln, The Perpetuation of Our Political Institutions: Address Before the Young Men's Lyceum of Springfield, Illinois January 27, 1838

(And, yes, I DO know how Lincoln trampled the Constitution during the War of Northern Aggression. I make no claim that he wasn't a hypocrite: He was, after all, a politician.)

[Mark Felton]

---

"Necessity is the plea of every infringement of human freedom. It is the arguement of tyrants, it is the creed of slaves."
~~William Pitt

---

[fifteendogs]

What war is that?

[xdem]

Can you point me to the place where it says, "Except when at war" in the bill of rights?

[Lloyd227]

"WE ARE AT WAR"

Are we?

And how should this change the point of the posted opinion?

[FormerLurker]

WE ARE AT WAR.

The last time I checked, the US Constitution was still in effect. And according to that Constitution, it is only Congress that has the authority to declare war. And as far as I've heard, they haven't done so..

Even if we WERE truly at war, there is no authority for ANY branch of the government to suspend the Bill of Rights, nor any OTHER part of the Constitution for that matter.

[The FRugitive]

War is the health of the state.