ANOTHER F-16 CRASHES IN UTAH DESERT

KSL tv5 | 13 Nov 02 | KSL tv5

[Lokibob]

Another F-16 has crashed in the Utah Test and Training Range. Just breaking now.

[freepersup]

"In the envelope" is a description of a boundary where survivability is possible or likely, versus "out of the envelope" which is almost always fatal.

Picture an aircraft with severe mechanical problems hurtling to earth. At the last possible moment the pilot ejects as the aircraft begins to roll over. Imagine a cone shaped area extending out from the aircraft equally to the right and left, providing that the wings are still level (in this example). This envelope or window of opportunity is a spatial dimension that gives the ejecting pilot the best chance for survival. If the aircraft rolls over, the pilot will be ejecting sideways or in a worst case scenario, will be ejecting upside down, wherein it would be said that the pilot was out of the envelope. No chance for the ejection system and parachute to deploy properly.

Lots of pilots have stayed with a disabled aircraft long enough to clear a populated area, or they try to right an unstable aircraft, electing to bail out at the last instant, often as an aircraft is coming apart. Loss of control and flying in close proximity to the ground reduces the chance for survivability as the envelope or window is diminished drastically.

A parachute needs approximately 150-300 feet to deploy properly. The trouble is... when the aircraft and pilot are traveling at a high rate of speed prior to impact, say 300-500 knots. The aircraft is fast approaching terra firma so the window of opportunity needed to deploy a parachute in, can be there one second and literally gone the next.

There was a video on FR some months ago which displayed an F4 Phantom jet throwing an engine (total disintegration) as the aircraft did a downleg pass on it's final approach. The aircraft banked into the base leg, then violently pitched, yawed and wobbled. It was everything the pilot could do to maintain control.

Upon reviewing the 7 second video capture, the only hope for the pilot was at this split second moment of regained control. An ejection had to occur at this moment as the aircraft was going to be banking and descending fatally, in a fraction of a second.

The aircraft continued banking into a final approach onto the runway. Unfortunately the pilot had way too fast of an approach (probably double the recommended landing speed) and was literally heading nose down into the runway while banking to the right.

The pilot ejects as the aircraft plows into the runway in a ball of fire and exploding aircraft parts. The pilot and ejection system cleared the aircraft. The ground was less than 100 away. The pilot was traveling at the same rate as the aircraft. The aircraft had an estimated forward speed of 250 knots. In the next instant, as the parachute is attempting to deploy, the pilot disappears into the burning wreckage below, as it catches up with him. Pilot perishes before the parachute can deploy and arrest his fall.

The ejection systems have what is known as a zero-zero capability. This means that the aircraft can be still, zero knots forward speed, and the aircraft obviously, will still be on the deck at zero altitude. There is sufficient energy in the rocket motors under the ejection seat to propel the pilot up to a sufficient altitude where the parachute system can deploy properly. Puts 14g's on the pilot. Works though.

In the above example, the high forward speed during the crash landing of the aircraft plus the extremely low altitude, negated the upward thrust of the ejection system. Thus described as, out of the envelope. When your out of the envelope, your out of luck.

[B4Ranch]

Last week I saw a picture of, I believe, an F-16 that landed safely with a bomb/rocket suspended by just the rear attachment point under its wing. The forward point of the bomb/rocket was hanging down and I recall thinking that the pilot was awful lucky that it didn't come loose as he touched the runway.

I thought that the crews who placed the bombs/rockets under the wings as a last detail 'armed' them.

I don't know if armed is the correct term, but I mean they turned them on, so when the pilot fired them they would explode. Why is this an unusual question?

[taxed2death]

I guess all those spare parts made for the F-16 during the Klintoon years are finding their home on the aircraft now. Chicom spare parts.....say no more.

[Tennessee_Bob]

I thought that the crews who placed the bombs/rockets under the wings as a last detail 'armed' them.

No - the last folks to touch the aircraft is the EOR (End of Runway) crew. They pull the arming pins on all the weapons systems to make them ready to use. Don't know if anyone can find one (and I have to head to work) but if you ever see a picture of a jet sitting there with bombs/missiles on the wings, you'll usually also see these big (maybe three feet long) red flags hanging down all over the place - the flags say "Remove Before Flight." The EOR crews pulls those safety pins just before takeoff and that makes the weapon ready for use.

[wita]

Chuck Yeager is living proof that he is a great pilot! If you are thinking, we are thinking Chuck is a great pilot because he never came close to dinging an airplane or buying the farm, forget it. Those situations happen to all pilots, especially fighter pilots who fly fast, and close to the ground, both of which can be very unhealthy, and surviving for as long as he has while still flying the fast movers, sure puts him in a league vertually by himself, IMHO!

[glock rocks]

[Fudd]

CFIT Accidents... nearly happens to all fighter pilots... Not everybody is a Chuck Yeager.

Actually, yeager's autobiography mentions a time Yeager intentionally used a P-39 to remove a small tree from his family's farm. The ground crew was less than happy to be cleaning dirt and wood from the a/c wingtip.

[Fudd]

Thanks for the good discussion of "in the envelope" for ejection. The 1989 MiG-29 crash in Paris was definitely at the envelope's edge (this video can be found online, somewhere). I am still amazed that the pilot survived that one.

[Seruzawa]

We're very fortunate that there aren't more crashes because of the Clowntoon Administration's years of Lean Logistics.

[agincourt1415]

RE: Chuck Yeager- by the way Chuck I hope you're a FREEPER, if not you should be. In my humble opinion, to be almost 80 years old, and just finished your last flight (supersonic) in an F-15, you are one the greatest pilots that ever lived, mainly because you ARE STILL ALIVE. He flew Fighters in Combat WWII, Vietnam, and a TEST PILOT. OR BETTER, he or most certainly had the GREATEST FUN any pilot can have in a lifetime. I believe the latter Chuck Yeayer had the most FUN of any pilot ALIVE LOL.

As far as Flying Skill: You Wrote Chuck Yeager not that great of a pilot?

Of course I won't know, I never flew with him, LOL, but if I did this is what I would do, take him up in a Cessna 172 and let him do three landings, then the next set of landings we do one each, whoever does the softest landings, gets a beer bought by the loser, and I would also want a professional photographer there to photograph me and Chuck LOL and I would blow it up to WALL SIZE LOL.

[RedBloodedAmerican]

I think he is a good pilot; but IMO not the greatest. I guess it depends on what you use as criteria. To me, it's not the test pilot or notoriety. Chuck is great at what he does, but to me, a pilot who did many sorties in WWII or Gulf War and lived to talk about it (or not), and also some Top Guns, are who I consider the best at what they do. Chuck may be best in his field of expertise.

[agincourt1415]

Re: Removing Trees

Chuck was always aware of his aircraft's systems and capabilities, LOL. P-39 - what a DAWG LOL.

Chuck had too much fun in an AIR FORCE that is now, Gone with the Wind.

Gone are the days when you could borrow a C-47 and fly with your Numbered Air Force Commander to a remote hunting spot.

Gone are the days when you could load up a C-47 with cheap Italian Wine and Fly it back to your base in Germany for a Xmas Party.

50TFW Masters of the SKY!

[RedBloodedAmerican]

ps. I didn't say his skills were not good. Just thought I'd clarify. he has good skills apparently, but IMO not the best....

[agincourt1415]

If you are talking about GREATEST COMBAT PILOT, you would have to go through the WWII German Luftwaffe Pilot List. Certainly ERIC HARTMANN (352 Kills) is the TOP FIVE, and it is the Highest Kill record of all time, and probably will NEVER be topped.

But this is an Argument that could go on FOR YEARS, and should be done over Beers near an airport, LOL.

But my favorite story on Chuck Yeager the combat pilot, is that he was really good at gunnery air to air, ( a lost art now) and he would typically lead his Squadron of P-51's over German Airspace and be able to spot the enemy way before the others in his squadron. His vision was about 20-15, and he could spot Me109's flying 50 miles away in clear vis, now thats impressive.

[RedBloodedAmerican]

But this is an Argument that could go on FOR YEARS, and should be done over Beers near an airport

LOL

And that is impressive about Yeager, I had not known that about him. I haven't read his book, maybe I should. Thanks.

[Tennessee_Bob]

Yeah, but the days are still here when a couple of two star generals can fly F-16s cross-country to watch the Master's Golf Tournament and chalk it up to "proficiency flights." Or when a Thunderbird replacement pilot can borrow an F-16 to fly back to Florida every weekend to be with his family. Those days are still around.

[agincourt1415]

Really refreshing to here that some of the old "traditions" survive'

True Story: I was at Hahn Air Base circa 1976 to 1979, standing on the Flight Line and we were scheduled to take Delivery of F-16s in early 1980.

Well we were treated to a mini Airshow by a Certain Bird Colonel type from the states in his F-16 Demo LOL.

Well, he was a real hot dog and put on a great show, tight turns, pulling water vapor off the wing tips, and finally a vertical climb out with H- axis rolls of course, to finish the show.

Little did the Hog Dog know, that the Commander of the 17th AF was on the ground and didn't like the Hot Dogging, the poor col., flying the 16 was SENT HOME on a MAC FLIGHT and told to park his F-16, talk about zero tolerance. But thinking back, that was USAFE back then, not much fun! The Air Force was notorious for taking the fun out of flying for a while, maybe thats not true so much now.

That Colonel was P---ed to say the least, he threw his kneeboard and helmet on the tarmac after the General was out of sight.

Anyway, Yeager was a Squadron Commander at Hahn in the 50s and the stories about him were told still at the Beer Calls, when I was there.

[not-an-ostrich]

Oh Wow!! Has to be his mother don't you think?

[Betty Jo]

I presume you are saying that this was a hit by the Terrs?

Could be!

I also think that the FBI gal was a targeted hit by the snipers.

Do you have a list of persons and or their relatives that have been hit?

[archy]

Anyone know the national origin of the name Jorma Huhtala. I saw the pilot's photo and I believe he was blond/blue eyed. Could it be Norwegian? Just curious.

The names are Finnish, though there's overlap with some border areas of Sweden.

Family background information here. I doubt there are/were two Jorma Huhtala's who were flying F16s.

-archy-/-