State of 'dhimmitude' seen as threat to Christians, Jews

The Washington Times ^ | 10/30/2002 | Julia Duin

[traditionalist]

Muslims have visited exile, persecution, deportations, massacres and other humiliations on non-Muslims for almost 1,400 years, she has told students at Georgetown, Brown, Yale and Brandeis universities.

Muslim armies steamrolled over North Africa, the Middle East and Spain for five centuries after the death of Muhammad in 632, says Bat Ye'or, a pen name meaning "daughter of the Nile." In her two most recent books, "Islam and Dhimmitude" and "The Decline of Eastern Christianity Under Islam," she describes how magnificent basilicas and monasteries of Egypt, Syria and Mesopotamia were left in smoking ruins by Muslims from the eighth to 10th centuries.

[traditionalist]

Oops. I accidentally missed the first paragraph:

"Egyptian-born historian Bat Ye'or and her husband, David Littman, have been making the rounds of several campuses this month to lecture on "dhimmitude," a word she coined to describe the status of Christians and Jews under Islamic governments."

[Lil'freeper]

"but it's well-known that Jews sought refuge under Muslim empires.

Hah. I was taught as an undergrad that using the phrase 'it's well-known' or 'widely recognized' is a clear signal that you can't produce the sources to support the claim. LOL.

[rmlew]

Actually, you are wrong here. Look up Sephardic Jews.
These are Jews whose families lived in southern France and Portugal Spain. France expelled them in the 12th century. In 1492, on uniting Spain Ferdinand and Isabela expelled all the Jews and Muslims who would not convert to Catholicism. Although some Jews found refuge in the Netherlands, Poland, and the New World, most settled in the the Kingdom of Tunis and the Ottoman Empire.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/jewish/1492-jews-spain1.html
http://www.sephardicstudies.org/1492account.html
http://www.sephardicstudies.org/

[Lil'freeper]

Actually, you are wrong here.

My criticism was of the rhetorical technique, not the scholarship. I would expect a learned, professor to be able to frame his argument in a less amateurish fashion.

If his statement had resembled your post, I wouldn't be so critical.

[Jabba the Nutt]

" Mr. Littman shrugged off the fracas. "The Muslim students who were attending were unhappy with what we were saying and so they pressured the Jews," he said. "And the Jews collapsed. They've become dhimmis.""

OUCH! Hmmm, shall we call the Democrats, the dhimmicrats?

[PsyOp]

Bump.

[Cicero]

Bat Ye'or has been respectfully reviewed in First Things.

It's true that some Jews have managed to live in Muslim countries. But they live there precisely in a state of dhimmitude, on sufferance, as second-class citizens, and without rights. Most of the few Jews living in Arab countries in the earlier part of this century had to leave after the Arab-Israeli conflict heated up. The Jews still permit large number of Muslims to live in Israel, but this degree of tolerance is not reciprocated.

One reason why the remaining Jews were kicked out of Spain in 1492 is that they were trading and dealing with the Muslims at the very time that Muslim slavers were raiding the coasts of Spain and threatening to re-conquer the country. The feeling was that Jews were playing both sides and couldn't be trusted. But that doesn't mean that the Jews were ever accepted as citizens in Muslim countries. They were tolerated as long as they kept quiet and didn't offend anybody, and as long as their masters weren't in a bad mood.

[traditionalist]

But they live there precisely in a state of dhimmitude, on sufferance, as second-class citizens, and without rights.

Careful. While all this propaganda about how wonderful and tolerant the Moselms were is a bunch of garbage, this idea that they forced religious minorities to live in a state of constant oppression is also unture. Jews and Christians did have rights in Moslem lands, and the extent of those varied from period to period. It is true that they were second-class citizens of sorts and had to pay a special tax.

They were tolerated as long as they kept quiet and didn't offend anybody, and as long as their masters weren't in a bad mood.

True, and to be fair, that is the way religious and ethnic minorities were treated in most societies throughout most of history.

I think the point of this article and others is not that Moslems were monsters to their minorities. Sure, there were some, but by and large that's not an accurate depiction of history. The point is to counter the anti-Western, anti-Christian propaganda that Moslem societies were so much more tolerant than Christian ones. This is simply not ture. Moselm societies were at least as bad, if not a little worse.

What distinguishes Islamic societies is not their treatment of minorities, but their desire for religious conquest and the need unite secular and religious rule. Conversion by the sword, a concept alien to Christianity, is intrinsic to Islam. That is why allowing Moslems to immigrate into Europe and America is so dangerous.

[tlrugit]

It seems to have gotten worse in the last century with the precipitous decline of the Christian populations in lands ruled by Islamic regimes. The age of the Martyrs is not over, and I don't mean those who aspire to the Valhalla of the Arabs.

[Paul Ross]

Jews and Christians did have rights in Moslem lands, and the extent of those varied from period to period. It is true that they were second-class citizens of sorts and had to pay a special tax.

It goes far beyond that. All infidels were to be ultimately driven out or killed. Hence, the Prophet Mohammed required the extermination of all those who were non-muslims in Saudi lands. And precisely how many christians do you see in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Indonesia, Malaysia, Iran, etc. Wherever you go, of the 19 or so hot wars going on in the world currently 18 of them are with Muslim countries...and in one form or another the muslims are eradicating christians.

[rmlew]

Most of Arabia, and espacially the Hijaz was cleansed of all Jews, Christians, and pagans. Yathrib/Medina had been a predominantly Jewish city with tolerence extended to everyone. In fact the Jews of Medina took in Mohammed after his expulsion from Mecca. 10 years later they were all gone: many men killed, women and children raped and enslaved. The rest were ransomed.

Outside of Arabia, Jews and Christians were technically tolerated so long as they paid special taxes and took certain professions Muslims could not hold. At best, their existance was analogous to the "Untouchables" in India, except for the special taxes and clothing.
Periodically, a Muslim ruler would have forced conversions and/or expulsions, and ranson the entire non-Muslim population. Their bretheren in other communities would by their freedom, lest they be enslaved and forced to convert.

The Levant did not go from being Christian and Jewish to predominantly Muslim by choice.