'Marksman' Or 'Expert' Rating No Big Deal In Army, Soldiers Point Out

Tacoma News Tribune | October 25, 2002 | Michael Gilbert and Eijiro Kawada

[Stand Watch Listen]

Qualifying as an "expert marksman" is no extraordinary achievement for soldiers in the Army.

In basic training and usually once a year, soldiers have to qualify with their service weapon. To earn their "expert" badge, they've got to hit 36 out of 40 targets from distances of 50 to 300 meters, officials said.

Soldiers and former soldiers said it's not a particularly tough test. And they said it shouldn't be read as any indication that D.C. sniper suspect John Muhammad achieved any unusual level of proficiency during his time in the Army.

"This expert badge this guy got is completely meaningless," said Gene Econ, a retired infantry major who trains soldiers in marksmanship. "The public needs to know that in the Army, that's pretty much meaningless."

Shooting a rifle, using camouflage and concealment are among the fundamental skills that all soldiers learn in their nine weeks of basic training, soldiers, veterans and Army officials said.

"You shoot from different positions at different targets," Spc. Vicente Hidalgo said Thursday after a haircut at Bell's Barber Shop II in Tillicum. "You learn aiming, breathing and holding the weapon steady."

He said 95 percent of soldiers pass the basic rifle marksmanship course. Others said about one in five qualify as expert.

"They train you on that a lot," said Hidalgo, who works in the pharmacy at Madigan Army Medical Center. "There are a few people who are too nervous to do it."

After the course, he said, anybody would be able to shoot a target 100 yards away - the range from which the D.C. sniper is reported to have shot his victims.

Don Kell, 63, an Army and Vietnam veteran from Tillicum, agreed, saying he can hit "a nickel or even a dime from 100 yards away."

While in the Army, Kell said, he qualified with several firearms including M-1 and M-16 rifles.

The Pentagon said Muhammad, a combat engineer, qualified expert on the M-16 and with hand grenades. He was last stationed at Fort Lewis in 1994.

Qualifying as an expert marksman and becoming a sniper are "apples and oranges," said Lt. Col. Stephen Barger, the Fort Lewis spokesman.

Sniper training involves a lot more than shooting, officials said. Candidates are put through a five-week course, screened for psychiatric and emotional problems, and must have advanced infantry skills.

Soldiers with disciplinary problems are kicked out of the program, officials said.

Muhammad did not receive sniper training in the Army, the Pentagon said in a news release.

"This guy's ability to point a rifle barrel, hit a 20-inch-by-30-inch target from 100 yards, firing with the barrel stabilized with a tripod ... there's no marksmanship ability involved in that at all," said Econ, who helps train snipers at Fort Lewis. "There is a sick, demented, murdering brain that will never be cured."

[JoeSixPack1]

When did my USMC change from yards to meters ??
Did they move the targets back to the correct metered measurement?
Or am I just so old I can't remember correctly?

[sparkomatic]

5 MOA? Holy Cow. It's a wonder that someone with that weapon could even qualify. That equates to more than 15 MOA at 300meters.
How, when and where does the army do this? I wasn't even aware that they checked the rifles this closely.

If you can really shoot .10 MOA my question is why? Are you trying to make eyeball shots on prairie dogs at 1000 yards?

[RetiredArmy]

The last time I qualified, in the spring of 1991, I hit 40 for 40 at Fort Benning. 20 were from the foxhole supported and 20 from the prone position, UNsupported. Meaning you had to balance on your elbows as your bipod. That includes four or five targets at 300 meters. Some ranges have clearly visiable targets and others have targets that are blended into the background somewhat. That day, my 300 targets were blended in. I could see the berm behind where the target was suppose to be, but mostly it was a black spot in the middle of the berm. I fired at the black spot and hit them all. The clouds coming and going caused shadows also. Wind, your breathing, your positioning, all fall into it. But, I never qualified less than expert on any range I ever fired the M16 or M14 on. Does that make me Sergeant York? Probably not, but I can still hit what I shoot at. So, whether his Army training made this guy an "expert" or not may or may not matter. It is the duty of every soldier to shoot expert. You want to do your best. Plus, on most promotion score sheets, you get more promotion points for your level of rifle marksmanship. So, why not get all the points you can when going up for E5 or E6? Plus, I just love to shoot. Period.

In fact, the very range down in Tacoma, Bullseye, which the feds are all over right now about the same of the AR15, is where my wife and I go to shoot our pistols right now. They have a very good indoor range.

[glc1173@aol.com]

There's very little marksmanship ability needed to hit a stationary man-size target at 150 yds. or less - which is what these guys did. And they missed totally at least once - hardly the stuff of "snipers."

My shooting buddy's 16-year-old daughter is a much-better shot at that range - with iron sights - than Muhammad and Malvo were with a scope.

Scandals of antigun politicians - with how-to guide to "outing!

[taxcontrol]

I found the 5 MOA reference in the supply regs. It had to deal with when it was acceptable to send an M16 back to depot for refub / disposal. If the M16 shot WORSE than 5 MOA, that was reason to send it back - otherwise tough. Lack of accuracy was not a good enough reason.

As for my gun, well I had delusions of being good enough to compete at Camp Perry.

[Poohbah]

I had a good day on the range and got an expert's rating, but I'm only a fair shot.

That's me, too. If you'll pardon the pun, I tend to be a little hit or miss in my shooting :o)

What I mean by that is that on my up days, I can put 10 for 10 into the X ring at 500 meters. On my down days, I count myself fortunate to hit somewhere in the same time zone.

[Poohbah]

I was trained as a unit armorer while with 1Bn 52nd Inf. Learned there that it is acceptable for a M16 to be as much as a 5 MOA after 2000 rds. Considering the weapon actually rattles when shacken, I would say that your assessment of 2 MOA is kind.

A new, just-out-of-the-box M16A2 will turn in 1 MOA (5-inch groups at 500 yards).

I don't think the USMC accepts 5 MOA, because that translates into a 25 inch CEP at 500 yards, and the (expletive deleted) black on the Modified Baker target is only about 18 inches wide.

[Cicero]

After Basic Training, I was sent to Army Electronics School and then went into radar repair, so I was never sent to the firing range a second time. But I collected an expert badge from my one visit to the range in Basic Training at Fort Dix. I think I did better than some of my barracks-mates, but I don't consider myself an expert shot. And my vision isn't great, either.

20% may be a minority, but it's a fairly large minority. All it takes to qualify as expert is the will power to relax, hold your breath, not to flinch, and to give the trigger a steady squeeze.

[HoustonCurmudgeon]

I spent 9 years in the army. I always fired expert. In fact in Basic Training I fired a perfect 40. And I'm mighty proud of it, too. In order to do that I had to hit about 4 (if I remember right) targets that were 300 meters distant.

When did the 40 come along? In 1971 we had to shoot at a hundred and I hit 99.

[taxcontrol]

A new, just-out-of-the-box M16A2 will turn in 1 MOA (5-inch groups at 500 yards). Well that is a good sign. We still had the old M16A1 (still had the triangular forestock) and had not yet received the new A2s. It was mid 80's and the M16A1s were getting rather worn. I'd like to think that the A2's were made better - hopefully they didn't rattle as much.

[Poohbah]

They didn't rattle much. Unfortunately, the takedown pins were put in so tightly that you needed a punch and a big mallet to field-strip them for the first six months...

[mrsmith]

"one in five qualify as expert"

I qualified as an expert, as would be expected from my earlier scoring. I think any young man who had been a competent hunter before basic could be expected to qualify as an expert.

[Prodigal Son]

I don't know about every post but I think most use the electronic scoring now. The exception being with the 25m alternate target but when we used those we had to print and sign our names on them and turn them into the training room afterwards (for verification).

There are still ways to cheat- alibi firing. If a range NCOIC allows shooters to shoot "alibi targets" (targets they might have missed due to weapons malfunction) a soldier can basically not shoot at any of the 250 or 300 meter targets and use those rounds on the alibi target which is not more than 150 meters away. It's frowned upon of course- but Joe will figure out a way to cheat if it's possible.

The surest method I saw to "pad" your chances without actually cheating was to not shoot the 300 meter target. There are four in the cycle. You save four rounds that way that you can shoot at targets of lesser range and as long as you hit them all you'll still score expert with 36 targets hit. You're not going to shoot perfect that way but if you're not a great shot, it can help out with the other targets- the worst you'll wind up is sharpshooter using that method.

I think the Army marksmanship is and isn't a good test. On the one hand, they're not judging you for accuracy- you barely nick the target and it'll go down as surely as if you hit center mass- on the other hand it is a pop up range where you have to scan your sector and expect targets at a variety of ranges, aquire the target quickly and take a timely shot before it dissappears. In that sense, I think it is a good test overlaying basic marksmanship skills onto a "realistic" environment.

Another point in the article-- they keep mentioning him being an expert at "grenades". That's even more of a joke. You don't even use live grenades when receiving that qualification. If you can low crawl up to a bunker and toss one in, hit an area target from 25 meters away and manage to lob one into a mortar pit or foxhole from 15 meters- you're goochy. Mostly luck is involved- you get a bad bounce you lose.

[SICSEMPERTYRANNUS]

"When did my USMC change from yards to meters ??
Did they move the targets back to the correct metered measurement?
Or am I just so old I can't remember correctly?"



Joe, we are still using yards. 200, 300 and 500 on the KD course. Semper Fi.

[GISax]

The expert badge is only meaningless if your buddy pencil-whips your scorecard. Before I joined the army, I had never shot anything more intimidating than a BB gun. I now consistently hit 38-39 out of 40 and I am a bandsman for crying out loud!!!!!!!!!!!

Most people here could do what the "sniper" did with a couple hours training unless you shake so much you look like a human earthquake.

--Ear Assault!

[jackbill]

I still have my orders bestowing marksmanship badges on my basic training company from February, 1952. The weapon was the M-1 Garand.

Of the 230 shooters, there were:

27 Expert - 11.7%
110 Sharpshooter - 47.8%
85 - Marksman - 37%
8 - Unqualified - 3.4%%

I qualified as Expert and I had fired a .22 rifle only a couple of times as a teenager.

[LTCJ]

That day, my 300 targets were blended in. I could see the berm behind where the target was suppose to be, but mostly it was a black spot in the middle of the berm. I fired at the black spot and hit them all.

I have to say I was quite pleased to earn my first expert badge. It was scored by someone I didn't know on a day when I couldn't even see the upright targets at 250-300 meters - only the glint as they came up. But my biggest problem was actualy at 25m - the target was so full of holes that I didn't get knockdowns with two rounds. Went right "through". That lead to a few words out of the side of my mouth.

[glorgau]

I was a tanker. Our personal weapon was M1911A .45 cal pistol. the ones we had were old used up pieces of junk. The slides would rattle when you shook the pistol!

The only people that didn't qualify as expert were losers. It was simple. Shooting an M-16 (which we did for familiarization ) was easy too. We had a good old boy sargeant that could hit a plate at 400 yards while in a standing position.

[JoeSixPack1]

Thanks! I thought so!

Semper Fi

or in this case - Semper Gumby :-)

[Poohbah]

Joe, SST...

Edson Range at Pendleton is calibrated in meters, and Parris Island is in yards. It takes 4 fewer points to get the various grades on the metric course (186-206 is Marksman, 207-216 is Sharpshooter, 217 and up is expert). 250 is still a possible (and a REE-KROOT supposedly got one at Edson in 1988).