Ballistic Fingerprinting will be a joke soon, or why the Moose can't admit the shooter has a AK-74

The fetid mind of TC Rider ^ | 10-16-02 | TC Rider

[TC Rider]

Ballistic Fingerprinting will be a joke soon, or why the Moose can't admit the shooter has a AK-74

Chief Moose and others involved with the investigation into the sniper shootings can't lend any credence to the witness who claims he saw a AK-74, because it would point out the ineptness of all of the ballistic testing to date.

After Moose, the ATF and others trotted out all of the Mini-14's and AR-15 variants that used .223 ammo, they know they are in trouble if it turns out to be a AK-74.

While the tests that show all of the rounds to have been fired from the same weapon may be accurate, they produced the wrong weapon.

Additionally, Kathleen Kennedy-Townsend, the VPC, Sarah Brady, Governor Glendingaling and others calling for ballistic fingerprinting will have to eat a lot of crow.

The problem for them is, that while all the US made weapons and the AK-74 fire a nearly identical .223 diameter projectile, or bullet, the actual complete round is slightly different in length and uses a different brass casing.

Does anyone else recall some of the early reports that the sniper was using some kind of special 'military' bullet? Chances are the sniper is using Wolf or some surplus Russian ammo.

I knew when they produced the .223 casing from the schoolyard shooting they were in trouble. It looked like it had laid in the woods for ages, or was a steel casing from Russian ammo . If it turns out the sniper is using a AK-74, that cartridge can't have come from it. It is actually possible to fire AR-15 ammo in the AK-74, but not recommended. The case is a tad longer, does not completely seat in a AK-74 chamber and will make a very tell-tale bulge in the base of the case, provided it doesn't explode out of the ejection port. So if the US AR-15 casing had been fired, the geniuses at ATF should have picked up on the tell-tale bulge at the base, where the round does not fully seat.

What the shooter is probably firing is 5.45X39 Russian hollow point ammo.

I've noticed that in the last day or two, a lot of the calls for ballistic fingerprinting are focusing more on bullets and less on casings. I suspect the powers that be, know that they are now dealing with a AK-74 and haven't quite figured out how to cover their asses.

Bottom line, even if nationwide ballistic fingerprinting had been in place for all firearms in America, it would not have helped in the least in this case. It might have led to the arrest and harassment of some poor SOB who had hunted in that area 12 years ago, provided the technology was good enough to trace the casing back to his own hunting rifle.

[TC Rider]

Disclaimer: I've been around firearms all of my life and done a wee bit of reloading, but am by no means an expert on all of this. I would be interested in replies from those who really know what they are talking about.

A lot of my info is from the web. What prompted me to look this up was something a drill instructor told me 30 years ago. He told us how devious the chi-coms were, because they designed weapons that could fire our ammo, but their's wouldn't work in ours.

If this info has already been posted, I apologize for the vanity.

[Joe Brower]

[Atlas Sneezed]

Bang

[the gillman@blacklagoon.com]

I met a pretty cool guy from Argentina who actually had a great recipe for crow. If it turns out there is to be a feast, I could give them his number.

[rface]

I have heard the AK 74 line before, but I haven't seen any stories published stating this. Do you know of any articles?

[Callahan]

Most of what the average person knows about ballistics comes from watching cop shows on TV. They'll believe whatever the gubbermint tells'em cause they saw ballistic fingerprinting used to solve a case on "Law & Order."

[babygene]

What the heck is an AK74? Is he trying to say AK47?

[Focault's Pendulum]

Excellent analysis. I just learned more from your commentary than I would have from listening to a month of talking heads.

Thanks for the education.

[meadsjn]

Another simple possibility is that the shooters are loading either 5.54 or .223 slugs into a 7.62x39 casing as a sabot (just as it would work for a .308 or .30-06). This way several different shooters using AK/SKS-47 rifles would be producing ballistically identical slugs (with no rifling grooves).

[skip2myloo]

The following extract comes from US Army Field Manual 100-2-3 - The Soviet Army; Troops Organisation and Equipment published in June 1991. The publication was approved for public release with unlimited distribution (ie may be freely used). The entry provided covered the AK-74 and the AKS-74 military assault rifles.

Description:

The AK-74 is basically an AKM rechambered and rebored to fire a 5.45-mm cartridge. Externally, it has the same general appearance as the AKM, with two noticable differences. It has a distinctive, two-port muzzle brake, giving it a slightly greater overall length than the AKM. It also has a smooth plastic magazine which is slightly shorter and is curved to a lesser extent than the grooved metal AKM magazine. It uses the same type of bayonet as the AK-series weapons.

There is also a folding stock version, designated AKS-74, which has a Y-shaped tubular stock. The stock has an extremely narrow buttplate, as opposed to the T-shaped, stamped-metal buttstock of the AKMS.

Capabilities:

The AK-74 fires 5.45 x 39-mm ball, ball-tracer, and incendiary-tracer rounds. The 5.45-mm round of the AK-74 has a considerably higher muzzle velocity than the 7.62-mm round of the AKM; this eliminates the range-limiting drawback of it predecessor. Like the AKM, the AK-74 has a maximum sight setting of 1,000 meters, but the effective range is 500 meters (versus 300 meters for the AKM). The muzzle brake of the AK-74 a fluidic device to minimize recoil and muzzle climb. Although the AK-74 is somewhat heavier than the AKM when empty, its loaded weight is slightly less than that of the AKM; this is due primarily to the plastic magazine and its smaller-caliber ammunition. Like the AK and the AKM, the AK-74 can mount a grenade launcher and a passive image intensifier night sight.

Limitations:

The gas cylinder, like the cylinders on the AK and AKM, is in a valunerable position; if dented, it may cause weapon mulfunction. The reddish-brown or orange color of the plastic magazine does not lend itself to camouflage.

Remarks:

The Soviets fielded the AK-74 in 1974, as indicated by the weapon's designation. The folding-stock AKS-74 was first seen with Soviet airborne troops in November 1977. The Ak-74 is also the basis for other 5.45-mm small arms, including the AKSU-74 submachine gun and the RPK-74 light machine gun.

[TC Rider]

AK-74 Ammo Specifications:

Round Length:	56.50 mm	Case Length:	39.50 mm
Rim Diameter:	10.00 mm	Bullet Diameter:	5.59 mm
Bullet Weight:	3.435 g; 10.75 g for round	Nominal Charge:	----
Muzzle Velocity:	900 m/s	Muzzle Energy:

[Sender]

There have been AK's in .223, such as the Romanian SAR-3.

[Alberta's Child]

Chief Moose and others involved with the investigation into the sniper shootings can't lend any credence to the witness who claims he saw a AK-74, because it would point out the ineptness of all of the ballistic testing to date.

Chief Moose would do well to sit some of his officers down with this "witness" and ask him how he could identify an AK-74 from 40 yards away at 9:30 PM in October.

[M. T. Cicero II]

No. AK-47 - antique. AK-74 - modern assault rifle.

[ASA Vet]

The AK-74 is the replacement for the old AK-47.
Happened way back in the 70's.

[TC Rider]

Thanks for posting that. Just when I think there have probably been enough posts about the AK-74, more show up that don't know the difference.

For the record, the better known, AK-47, fires a round 'close' to the Nato 7.62 round. Again, as an expediant, they can use our ammo, we can't use theirs.

The AK-74 was produced for similar reasons to why we made the M-16, lighter ammo allows troops to carry more rounds in the field.

[TC Rider]

Another simple possibility is that the shooters are loading either 5.54 or .223 slugs into a 7.62x39 casing as a sabot (just as it would work for a .308 or .30-06). This way several different shooters using AK/SKS-47 rifles would be producing ballistically identical slugs (with no rifling grooves).

I say go for the simpler solution. These AK-74 do turn up as surplus here, along with tons of the russian ammo. I recall seeing plenty of both at recent gun shows.

[justlurking]

What the heck is an AK74? Is he trying to say AK47?

An AK-47 fires a 7.62mm bullet: http://www.sovietarmy.com/small_arms/ak-47.html.

An AK-74 fires a 5.45mm bullet: http://www.sovietarmy.com/small_arms/ak-74.html

[billhilly]

" After Moose, the ATF and others trotted out all of the Mini-14's and AR-15 variants that used .223 ammo, they know they are in trouble if it turns out to be a AK-74."

Does it matter whever it is one or the ovver?

[billyhill]

check out www.sovietarmy.com , will describe the ak-74.