LOS ANGELES CITY COUNCIL TO CONSIDER HUNTING AND "GREEN" AMMO BAN

The California Rifle and Pistol Association (via email) | September 13, 2002 | Chuck Michel

[Redcloak]

California Rifle & Pistol Association, Inc.
271 East Imperial Highway
Fullerton, California 92835


For Immediate Release: September 13, 2002
For Additional Information Contact: Chuck Michel (310) 548-3703

LOS ANGELES CITY COUNCIL TO CONSIDER
HUNTING AND "GREEN" AMMO BAN
Proposal Would Ban Environmentally Friendly Non-Lead Ammo,
As Well As Hunting Rifle and Shotgun Cartridges

Los Angeles, CA– As early as next Tuesday the Los Angeles City Council is expected to vote on a proposed ordinance that would prohibit law-abiding citizens from purchasing most firearm ammunition in Los Angeles. A few council members, acknowledging that they cannot legally ban all guns, have gone so far as to urge a complete ban on all ammunition in the City.

The proposal completely bans the "sale or transfer" of all cartridges containing anything but lead, as well as cartridges over .41 caliber, "magnum" loads often used in conventional hunting rifles and competition shooting, and hunting and self-defense shotgun loads. In the process, the ordinance will ban ammunition used in smaller caliber firearms to make these guns effective as self-defense tools, as well as the new non-lead "green" ammunition that has been emerging in the market to address environmental contamination concerns presented by the use of conventional lead ammunition at shooting ranges and for hunting. The ban is not limited to retailers. It prohibits private parties from giving or otherwise transferring ammunition anyplace in the city, including at a shooting range.

Opponents of the proposal include CRPA, the NRA, the Law Enforcement Alliance of America, the Shooting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute, the non-profit Association for a Cleaner Environment, the Pink Pistols, the Single Action Shooting Society (a competitive "cowboy action" shooting association), the National Shooting Sports Foundation (the gun industry's trade group), and a host of others. The ordinance, contact information for the City Council, and letters in opposition can be viewed at http://www.nramemberscouncils.com.

"To the extent anyone doubted that the gun ban lobby is not just interested in banning handguns, this shows their true colors," said Chuck Michel, CRPA spokesman. "These are hunting rifle and shotgun cartridges they want to ban! The only reason they aren't banning the rifles and shotguns themselves is they acknowledge that state law doesn't allow them to do so."

An existing LA City law, in effect since 1998, requires the registration of all ammunition sales in the city. Purchasers must fill out the form, show identification, and provide a thumb print -- all so illegal purchasers can be prosecuted. And state law makes it a felony for anyone who cannot possess a firearm to possess ammunition.  But according to Los Angeles Police Department records, as of last year the laws resulted in no felony prosecutions.

CRPA's 70,000 members include law enforcement officers, prosecutors, professionals, firearm experts, the general public, and loving parents.  CRPA instructors have been teaching safe and responsible firearms ownership to those who choose to own a gun for sport or self-defense for over 125 years. CRPA has a variety of effective crime prevention and gun safety programs available.

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[Redcloak]

This ordinance would among other things, outlaw any ammunition with steel in the projectile. Ever heard of steel shot? That's the stuff that's supposed to keep the little duckies happy after you've missed turning them into dinner; the enviro-friendly shotgun shells. Those would be illegal to sell or otherwise transfer in the city of L.A. under this law. Frangible, lead-free ammo for indoor ranges? Nope... Not 'round here once the City Council gets through with you!

Needless to say, the Council members are in need of some polite instruction on these matters. Here is all of the lovely contact info that you'll be needing...

Council Districts- 1| 2| 3| 4| 5| 6| 7| 8| 9| 10| 11| 12| 13| 14| 15
District 1 - Ed Reyes	[e-mail]
City Hall Office (213)-485-3451 200 N. Spring Street, Rm 410 Los Angeles, CA 90012 Field Offices
District 2 - Wendy Greuel	[e-mail]
City Hall Office (213)-485-3391 200 N. Spring Street, Rm 430 Los Angeles, CA 90012 Field Offices
District 3 - Dennis P. Zine	[e-mail]
City Hall Office (213)-485-3486 200 N. Spring Street, Rm 405 Los Angeles, CA 90012 Field Offices
District 4 - Tom LaBonge	[e-mail]
City Hall Office (213)-485-3337 200 N. Spring Street, Rm 480 Los Angeles, CA 90012 Field Offices
District 5 - Jack Weiss	[e-mail]
City Hall Office (213)-485-5013 200 N. Spring Street, Rm 440 Los Angeles, CA 90012 Field Offices
District 6 - Ruth Galanter	[e-mail]
City Hall Office (213)-485-3357 200 N. Spring Street, Rm 475 Los Angeles, CA 90012 Field Offices
District 7 - Alex Padilla	[e-mail]
City Hall Office (213)-847-7777 200 N. Spring Street, Rm 465 Los Angeles, CA 90012 Field Offices
District 8 -Mark Ridley-Thomas	[e-mail]
City Hall Office (213)-485-3331 200 N. Spring Street, Rm 450 Los Angeles, CA 90012 Field Offices
District 9 - Jan Perry	[e-mail]
City Hall Office (213)-485-3351 200 N. Spring Street, Rm 420 Los Angeles, CA 90012 Field Offices
District 10 -Nate Holden	[e-mail]
City Hall Office (213)-485-3323 200 N. Spring Street, Rm 455 Los Angeles, CA 90012 Field Offices
District 11 - Cindy Miscikowski	[e-mail]
City Hall Office (213)-485-3811 200 N. Spring Street, Rm 415 Los Angeles, CA 90012 Field Offices
District 12 - Hal Bernson	[e-mail]
City Hall Office (213)-485-3343 200 N. Spring Street, Rm 460 Los Angeles, CA 90012 Field Offices
District 13 - Eric Garcetti	[e-mail]
City Hall Office (213)-473-7013 200 N. Spring Street, Rm 470 Los Angeles, CA 90012 Field Offices
District 14 - Nick Pacheco	[e-mail]
City Hall Office (213)-485-3335 200 N. Spring Street, Rm 425 Los Angeles, CA 90012 Field Offices
District 15 - Janice Hahn	[e-mail]
City Hall Office (213)-473-7015 200 N. Spring Street, Rm 435 Los Angeles, CA 90012 Field Offices

As always, be polite, but firm.

And on a side note, Councilman Dennis Zine will be at the L.A. Westside NRA Members' Council meeting tonight. Details.

[Redcloak]

BANG!! (Green, of course...)

[Arkinsaw]

Doubt this would stand up when it gets to the Supreme Court. Banning all ammunition is effectively banning guns and I suspect the Supreme Court would sense that. At least as long as Scalia, Thomas, and Rehnquist are there and we can pick up a swinger.

[Redcloak]

The problem, of course, is the attentuated revenue stream for the local gun shops as they wait for the law to be scrapped. It's better to stop it now.

[sangoo]

This is why I moved out of there years ago. Just a bunch of socialists running the place. Ammo can be purchased in nearby counties without the hassel of signatures and thumb prints....less sales tax too.

[TheRedSoxWinThePennant]

california just needs to go away

[LexBaird]

Wouldn't it be amusing if all of the ammo and gun companies said: "L.A. doesn't want us to sell guns and ammo? Fine. We won't, starting with not selling another cartridge to the LAPD or LA County Sherriffs."

[Jagdgewehr]

"Purchasers must fill out the form, show identification, and provide a thumb print -- all so illegal purchasers (translation: lawful gun ownwers) can be prosecuted (Translation: identified, tracked down, subjected to government search and seizure, and possible indictment)."

lawful California gun owners - illegal purchasers

illegal Mexican migrants - immigrants

[Redcloak]

The law would exempt LEOs from the restrictions, but where are they supposed to buy ammo? Does the city really wants its police officers to be going to Burbank or Glendale to buy ammo?!?

[absalom01]

This is a proposed city ordinance, not county. Other cities in the county are still fine, though there is a tendency to follow the lead of the big dog with this sort of thing.

[Redcloak]

This letter from Turner's Outdoorsman protesting the proposal is interesting. They point out that the City has never asked them to provide testimony in a criminal case resulting from the ammo ID checking and thumbprinting. During the same period, however, they've assisted State and Federal agencies on many different occasions. In other words, the City isn't doing squat with the records they're generating; and now they want a ban on most ammo...

[IronJack]

It can be argued that a ban on ammunition constitutes a ban on firearms. Remember, the Second Amendment does not say that the right to keep and bear GUNS is sacred; it spells out the right to keep and bear ARMS. Since the ammunition comprises an integral part of the ARM, it is protected by that same amendment.

This kind of back-door duplicity is common among the gun thieves. They lack the courage to implement their vicious agenda in the light of day, so they conduct their business in the shadows, behind the shades. They are the most dangerous kinds of cowards.

[YoungKentuckyConservative]

I sent these communists a less than kind email. Just another indication that California is no longer a part of the republic.

[coloradan]

The law would exempt LEOs from the restrictions, but where are they supposed to buy ammo? Does the city really wants its police officers to be going to Burbank or Glendale to buy ammo?!?

Yes, all such laws exempt police and military ... which kinda gives some inkling of how much "for the children" these laws really are. But what would be nice is if the ammo manufacturers decided, law or no law, to boycott the LAPD - or better yet, CA altogether. They want to be gun free? Here's what gun free means... Gun manufacturers and gunsmithing services, too. You don't like us in CA? We don't need your business.

[tahiti]

"The problem, of course, is the attentuated revenue stream for the local gun shops as they wait for the law to be scrapped."

Good point.

Sounds like there is a 5th Amendment constitutional challenge here:

"...nor shall private property be taken for public use without just compensation."

The California Constitution might help as well:

CALIFORNIA CONSTITUTION ARTICLE 1 DECLARATION OF RIGHTS

SEC. 19. Private property may be taken or damaged for public use only when just compensation, ascertained by a jury unless waived, has first been paid to, or into court for, the owner.

[Eala]

Hm.....lets apply this to the other "freedoms" shall we?

Um. Read the following, and then tell me we're not so far down this road that a little Internet discussion will correct it.

.

"THEY THOUGHT THEY WERE FREE: THE GERMANS, 1933-45"
by Milton Mayer
The University of Chicago Press

From the chapter, "But then it was too late" pages 169 to 172, 1966 edition.

"You see," my colleague went on, "one doesn't see exactly where or how to move. Believe me, this is true. Each act, each occasion, is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next. You wait for one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join with you in resisting somehow. You don't want to act, or even talk, alone; you don't want to 'go out of your way to make trouble.' Why not?---well, you are not in the habit of doing it. And it is not just fear, fear of standing alone, that restrains you; it is also genuine uncertainty."

"Uncertainty is a very important factor, and, instead of decreasing as time goes on, it grows. Outside, in the streets, in the general community, 'everyone' is happy. One hears no protest, and certainly sees none. You know, in France or Italy there would be slogans against the government painted on walls and fences; in Germany, outside the great cities, perhaps, there is not even this. In the university community, in your own community, you speak privately to your colleagues, some of whom certainly feel as you do; but what do they say? They say, 'It's not so bad' or 'You're seeing things' or 'You're an alarmist.'

"And you ARE an alarmist. You are saying that this must lead to this, and you can't prove it. These are the beginnings, yes; but how do you know for sure when you don't know the end, and how do you know, or even surmise, the end? On the one hand, your enemies, the law, the regime, the Party, intimidate you. On the other, your colleagues pooh- pooh you as pessimistic or even neurotic. You are left with your close friends, who are, naturally, people who have always thought as you have."

"But your friends are fewer now. Some have drifted off somewhere or submerged themselves in their work. You no longer see as many as you did at meetings or gatherings. Informal groups become smaller; attendance drops off in little organizations, and the organizations themselves wither. Now, in small gatherings of your oldest friends, you feel that you are talking to yourselves, that you are isolated from the reality of things. This weakens your confidence still further and serves as a further deterrent to---to what? It is clearer all the time that, if you are going to do anything, you must make an occasion to do it, and then you are obviously a troublemaker. So you wait, and you wait."

"But the one great shocking occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you, never comes. That's the difficulty. If the last and worse act of the whole regime had come immediately after the first and smallest, thousands, yes, millions would have been sufficiently shocked---if, let us say, the gassing of the Jews in '43 had come immediately after the 'German Firm' stickers on the windows of non-Jewish shops in '33. But of course this isn't the way it happens. In between come all the hundreds of little steps, some of them imperceptible, each of them preparing you not to be shocked by the next. Step C is not so much worse than Step B, and, if you did not make a stand at Step B, why should you at Step C? And so on to Step D."

"And one day, too late, your principles, if you were ever sensible of them, all rush in upon you. The burden of self-deception has grown too heavy, and some minor incident, in my case my little boy, hardly more than a baby, saying 'Jew swine,' collapses it all at once, and you see that everything, everything, has changed and changed completely under your nose. The world you live in---your nation, your people--- is not the world you were born in at all. The forms are all there, all untouched, all reassuring, the houses, the shops, the jobs, the mealtimes, the visits, the concerts, the cinema, the holidays. But the spirit, which you never noticed because you made the lifelong mistake of identifying it with the forms, is changed. Now you live in a world of hate and fear, and the people who hate and fear do not even know it themselves; when everyone is transformed, no one is transformed. Now you live in a system which rules without responsibilty even to God. The system itself could not have intended this in the beginning, but in order to sustain itself it was compelled to go all the way."

"You have gone almost all the way yourself. Life is a continuing process, a flow, not a succesion of acts and events at all. It has flowed to a new level, carrying you with it, without any effort on your part. On this new level you live, you have been living more comfortably everyday, with new morals, new principles. You have accepted things you would not have accepted five years ago, a year ago, things that your father, even in Germany could not have imagined."

"Suddenly it all comes down, all at once. You see what you are, what you have done, or, more accurately, what you haven't done, (for that was all that was required of most of us: that we do nothing). You remember those early meetings of your department in the University when, if one had stood, others would have stood, perhaps, but no one stood. A small matter, a matter of hiring this man or that, and you hired this one rather than that. You remember everything now, and your heart breaks. Too late. You are compromised beyond repair."

.

We (the vast majority of us) are too comfortable. We (all of us but some of the alarmists) make the necessary compromises. And it is exactly by such small, easy, considered, calculated and comfortable steps that civilization is lost.