A Reflection on Apostasy

As a Father of four who struggles continually to try to raise his children in a Catholic culture by homeschooling them who surrounds ourselves with other friends of like mind in this anti-culture of death, I was shocked to received a phone call from a friend in Boston yesterday on a business trip. Just for some short background, he and I as well as a couple of other friends have been discussing the prudence and actual applications of Bishops and even the Pope regarding ecumenical ventures and inter-religious dialogue, especially in comparison to what is actually authorized by Vatican II. This conversation that we have struggled with, and continue to struggle with, entails each of us trying to keep each other on the straight and narrow path of obedience to in faith and morals to the Magisterium. We have read the Vatican II documents on the topic and they appear to be much more measured and "conservative" if you will in their applications than any of the practical gatherings that our U.S. Bishops, the Pope at the two Assissi events, and even Cardinal Arinze with the Buddhists and Hindus, have managed to undertake.

Please understand we are dealing with complex problems, and aside from one of us who is completing his master's in theology, we are mere laymen who have read a lot, and are formed in our faith through reading, prayer and the sacraments, perhaps in a deeper stage than most 20 or 30-something year-old Catholic men in the U.S. today. In other words, our lifestyles and interests are not typical of today's Catholic man.

With that being said, we struggle with obedience to the magisterium of the Church and in wanting to not to exercise private judgment, however, when Cardinal Kasper, who has had his theological bouts with Cardinal Ratzinger, is appointed a cardinal by the Pope and put in charge of "Christian Unity," and further has stated (paraphrased) that the return of confessional Christians to Catholicism is "an outdated concept" and not in keeping with the theology of Vatican II, even those Catholics who are not of the "traditionalist" mindset should have cause for concern to at least question what it is exactly Cardinal Kasper (whom the Pope appointed) has in mind. Now, back to the story of my friend in Boston.

He called me from the airport and had the Boston Globe in his hand, and sputtered, "Did you read this in the Boston Globe today?!!" Being the person who ordinarily sends out articles on topics of the Church to a rather large e-mail list, I assumed he had wandered upon another Priestly scandal story.

"No. What is it?" I enquired. We got cut off, and while he was calling me back, I quickly pulled up the Boston Globe on the web, and there it was staring me in the face with the headline... "Catholics Reject Evangelization of Jews." Well, being a former reporter myself who nows deals with the media professionally, I decided to read the article and figure out what kind of misrepresentation on Church teaching the Globe was printing today. After reading the story, it appeared the headline was accurate, so quickly I went to the U.S. Bishops' website and pulled up the "commentary" on the reflection on some dialogue that had apparently been taking place between some Catholic Bishops (particularly Cardinal Keeler, whom certain homeschooling organizations have relied upon over the years as their representative to Rome--YIKES!) and prominent Jewish leaders in the U.S.

Sure enough, there it was, from our "bishops" the second paragraph states: "Citing the growing respect for the Jewish tradition that has unfolded since the Second Vatican Council, and the deepening Catholic appreciation of the eternal covenant between God and the Jewish people," the Catholic portion of the Reflections says that "campaigns that target Jews for conversion to Christianity are no longer theologically acceptable in the Catholic Church." http://www.usccb.org/comm/archives/2002/02-154.htm . Lots of footnotes, selectively pulled from writings of John Paul II, Vatican II, and of course, Cardinal Kasper. Now, without getting into the history of the claims of individuals within the Church of allegedly forcibly coercing Jews against their will, could this story really be true? My friend called back and we read parts of the article and reflection aloud.

"Steve," I said. "This is the evidence of the apostasy. Our bishops, (at least those who are in accord with this document) have said that Jesus Christ came to earth, was crucified by Jews through a gentile (Roman) political court and leader, and now, it really doesn't matter if the Jews become Catholic because, according to the document, both Jews and Christians are equal in God's eyes." In other words, Jesus Christ came and died on the cross, but did not redeem Israel because Israel did not need redeeming! "Tell that to the Israelites destroyed in the Temple!" said another friend of mine.

Rabbi Gilbert Rosenthal, Executive Director of the National Council of Synagogues, said: "The joint Catholic-Jewish statement on mission is yet another step in turning a new page in the often stormy relationship between the Jewish people and the Roman Catholic Church. Neither faith group believes that we should missionize among the other in order to save souls via conversion. Quite the contrary: we believe both faith groups are beloved of God and assured of His grace. The joint mission statement has articulated a new goal, namely the healing of a sick world and the imperative to repair the damage we humans have caused to God's creations. We believe we are partners in bringing blessings to all humankind for this is god's will."

Steve, on the other end of the phone, was dumbfounded. "I guess this means this battle that faithful lay Catholics face is going to get quite ugly and more difficult if this is what our bishops really think," he said. Silence on both ends...

Ladies and gentlemen, the statement agreed upon by the U.S. Bishops committee and certain Jewish organizations is nothing short of denial of Jesus Christ for salvation and the necessity of his Church as the mediator of salvation. The statement by the Rabbi above, as wonderfully ecumenical and politically correct and harmless as it sounds, is nothing by reformulated Freemasonic principles, condemned multiple times by the Church. This battle for our true Faith has crossed the boundaries of sanity, and it is my hope and belief that the differences between technique and understanding that exists between "traditionalist" and "conservative" Catholics of the Steubenville variety will be resolved and overlooked so that the laymen can collectively struggle protect the Faith itself as at the times of the Arian crisis, along with those Priests and Bishops who still believe in the Great Commission and of the Church's necessity for salvation, and bond together to point out these errors, these heresies... this apostasy to the Bishops themselves.

While many even "traditionalist" Catholics did not like nor appreciate the "We Resist You to Your Face" manifesto that came from some prominent layment directed toward Rome a year or so ago, we lay Catholics must defend our Faith, the entire deposit, against Bishops who no longer believe it is our duty as baptized Catholics to become saints ourselves, and just as importantly, to lead others to holiness through the Church that only the Apostolic Roman Church can provide through the sacraments and prayer. Cardinal Keeler and any other bishops who believe we must no longer evangelize non-Christians must be publicly rebuked by the faithful flock. It is our duty!

Sister Lucia and the apparitions of Fatima warned of this apostasy. It is time for good-hearted laymen to rise up and call for a restoration of traditional Catholicism to all corners and parishes throughout the world!

"Neither faith group believes that we should missionize among the other in order to save souls via conversion. Quite the contrary: we believe both faith groups are beloved of God and assured of His grace." You have got to be kidding me. Forcible conversions against someone's will? Of course not! The Church has never taught in its magisterial capacity that this was acceptable practice. But, "both faith froups are beloved of God and assured of His grace?" What about the prayers at every single Mass in the pre-Vatican II rite that were specifically for the conversions of the Jewish people? Were we really wrong all those years? Were we? Or perhaps are the Bishops wrong now?

Finally, as depressing and "negative" as this may be, it may be time to take Pope Paul VI's warning to heart:

"The tail of the devil is functioning in the disintegration of the Catholic world. The darkness of Satan has entered and spread throughout the Catholic Church even to its summit. Apostasy, the loss of the faith, is spreading throughout the world and into the highest levels within the Church." Pope Paul VI, October 13, 1977, Address on the Sixtieth Anniversary of the Fatima Apparitions.

Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.

This is baloney. If one doesn't know Christ, then one has to be sinless. One either must lead a perfect life according to the law, or one must be saved thru faith in Christ. Nowhere in scripture is another plan outlined. Grace only comes through Christ - no other plan available. This is more apostasy. "Strive by their deeds..." - here we go again with earning salvation! Let me ask you something: Is there such a thing as a person who has not broken the 10 commandments? Question #2: Can sin be forgiven other than thru the blood of Christ? Question 3: Can a perfectly just an Holy God NOT punish unwashed sin? The pygmies in Africa who do not know Christ are not going to hell for not hearing the gospel, they are going for breaking God's laws! Period. Nevertheless, everyone will get a fair deal.

This is baloney.

Maybe not. Let's see...
For all men were by nature foolish who were in ignorance of God, and who from the good things seen did not succeed in knowing HIM WHO IS, and from studying the works did not discern the Artisan.
But either fire, or wind, or the swift air, or the circuit of the stars, or the mighty water, or the luminaries of heaven, the governors of the world, they considered gods. Now if out of joy in their beauty they thought them gods, let them know how far more excellent is the Lord than these; for the original Source of beauty fashioned them. Or if they were struck by their might and energy, let them from these things realize how much more powerful is He who made them.
For from the greatness and the beauty of created things their original Author, by analogy, is seen. But yet, for these the blame is less; For they indeed have gone astray perhaps, though they seek God and wish to find Him. For they search busily among His works, but are distracted by what they see, because the things seen are fair. But again, not even these are pardonable. For if they so far succeeded in knowledge that they could speculate about the world, how did they not more quickly find its LORD?

From the Book of Wisdom 13, 1-9

You might want to check your information before posting. The Roman Catholic Church does not have a Doctrine of Works, it is a Doctrine of Faith AND Works. This reasoning stems from the letter of James:

"What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, 'Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,' but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. Indeed someone might say, 'You have faith and I have works.' Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. Do you want proof, you ignoramus (not making a comment, promise), that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the Altar? You see faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, 'Abraham belived God and it was credited to hhim as righteousness,' and he was called 'the friend of God.' See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. . . For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead " James 3:14-26

There in essence is the Roman Catholic Stance that Works are necessary to truly show Faith, for what good is saying something when one does not act upon it. They work almost in concert with one another, each one vitally important, faith of course is first, but by works, one's faith is demonstrated, and one does as He wants us to do.

Oh he can, but there are other ways of punishing than by Hell.

What other punishment is available? Heaven is not a punishment - it's a reward! It's paradise. Should I get ready for more man-made doctrine that contradicts Scripture? Jesus said "I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE, NO ONE COMES UNTO THE FATHER BUT BY ME." Peter said, "THERE IS NO OTHER NAME UNDER HEAVEN BY WHICH MAN MUST BE SAVED". These are rather plain wouldn't you say? You are confused. So, you catholics are saying that a person can get to heaven without faith in Christ? This is in direct contravention to what Jesus Himself said! He also said, "ENTER THRU THE NARROW GATE" and that "NARROW IS THE PATH THAT LEADS TO ETERNAL LIFE BUT WIDE IS THE PATH THAT LEADS TO DESTRUCTION" - what part of this allows someone to go to heaven without Christ? With all due respect, Allend, this doctrine amounts to apostasy! If there were any other way to get to heaven, there would have been NO NEED FOR GOD TO SEND HIS SON TO DIE! BUT THERE WAS AND IS NO OTHER WAY!

However, you haven't demonstrated that he does not make grace available to those who have not heard of him.

Scriptures are our guide. The burden of proof is ON YOU, since scriptures do not allow for ANY OTHER WAY! It is you who need to demonstrate there is another way available according to scripture!

So Christians sin, as do others. But no matter. Christians will get to heaven. Non-Christians, for the same sins, go to Hell. Bad theology, guy. God is impartial.

Bad theology? It's right from the book of Romans! God is impartial to all those judged under the Law! But those who have faith in Christ are covered by His blood and are declared not guilty. How many scriptures do you need to prove my point? This is ridiculous - I post scriptures that plainly lay it out and you just ignore them - at your peril. If you do not trust Christ alone for salvation - you will be judged by the Law. That is crystal clear. And no man can stand being judged by the Law. This "bad theology" is clearly laid out by Paul in Romans, Colossians and Galations. I find it sad that you hold to these anti-bilbical teachings. Let me state one more time so there is no doubt - any doctrine that contradicts scripture is A LIE! Secondly, you can use the excuse that I misinterpret the scriptures, but the plain reading - word for word - is quite plain. You are hopelessly confused in your doctrine, and the doctrine you have posted here ARE DAMNABLE LIES. Oour conversation is over. I don't want to confuse you any further with the FACTS.

So Christians sin, as do others. But no matter. Christians will get to heaven. Non-Christians, for the same sins, go to Hell. Bad theology, guy. God is impartial.

I still can't believe you wrote this, and call yourself a bleiver in Jesus Christ. ALL HAVE SINNED. Get it? "ALL" means everyone in earth's history, including you and the pygmies. Christians are covered by the blood of Christ (those that put faith in Him). All others are NOT - they will be judged by the Law. And all are guilty. Ro 3:10 - there is none righteous, no not one. Guilty. If there was another way for God to extend His Grace, why did he send His Son to die? hmmm? That doesn't make sense.

Scriptures do not allow for ANY OTHER WAY!

I can tell you haven't read the Bible quote in my post #228.
There is NO OTHER WAY than THROUGH CHRIST.
But, you seem to limit Him and terribly underestimate Him.

I will give you more Scripture quotes to ponder:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be. John 1, 1-4

I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea, and all of them were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. All ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they drank from a spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was the Christ. 1Cor 10, 1-4

Today we, the Catholics, celebrate the feast of Assumption - Mary, the Mother of God, taken body and soul to heaven. The Catholic Church has always believed that Mary was free from the Original Sin in a unique anticipation of the Sacrifice of Christ (only God could do that for Her and for the Son of God), and Mary's body was preserved from the corruption of death in a unique anticipation of the general resurrection.

Just as in Adam all die, so too in Christ shall all be brought to life, but each one in proper order: Christ the firstfruits; then, at His coming, those who belong to Christ. 1Cor 15, 22-25

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