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CHILD PORNOGRAPHY RING ARRESTED
Associated Press .. breaking on the wire | August 9, 2002 | Connie Cass (AP)

Posted on 08/09/2002 8:59:43 AM PDT by NYer

WASHINGTON (AP) _ Ten Americans and six foreigners were charged Friday with taking sexually explicit photographs of their own children or children in their care and sending them over the Internet to an international child pornography ring, the U.S. Customs Service said.

Forty-five children, including 37 in the United States, were victims and have been removed from the care of those indicted, Customs officials said. Most of them are in the custody of another parent or relative.

The defendants include nine people from seven states who were indicted in Fresno, Calif., along with six residents of Denmark, Switzerland and the Netherlands. The indictment alleges that members of the ring, referring to themselves as ``the club,'' traded messages across the Internet requesting photographs of specific sexual poses. One man asked for an audiotape so he could hear a child crying while being spanked, the indictment said, and another posed naked with an underage girl.

The Customs Service coordinated the U.S. investigation that began last November with a request for help from the Danish National Police, who were acting on a tip about an international child pornography ring. ``I congratulate the investigators whose ingenuity and perseverance brought these people to justice,'' Customs Commissioner Robert C. Bonner said in a statement.

The Americans charged include: Lloyd Alan Emmerson of Fresno County, Calif.; Paul Whitmore and Brooke Rowland, San Diego County, Calif.; Tracy Reynolds, Texas; Leslie Peter Bowcut, Idaho; Michael David Harland, Florida; Harry Eldon Tschernetzki, Washington state; John Zill, South Carolina; Craig Davidson, Kansas. The identity of the tenth American was not immediately available.

The foreigners were identified as Eggert Jensen and Bente Jensen of Denmark; Jean-Michael Frances Cattin, Marcel Egli and Peter Althaus of Switzerland; and Dirk-Jan Prins of the Netherlands.

On the Net: Customs Service: http://www.customs.ustreas.gov

AP-ES-08-09-02 1114EDT


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; Government; News/Current Events; US: California; US: Idaho; US: Kansas; US: South Carolina; US: Texas; US: Washington
KEYWORDS: childabuse; eurotrash; interpol; pornography; uscustoms
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To: Frapster
And to you 'sur'. - You asked a question about 'morals', and got an answer you couldn't deal with.

-- Now you are attempting to save face by calling names. End of story.
221 posted on 08/10/2002 9:28:30 AM PDT by tpaine
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To: VA Advogado
People like him defend this lifestyle in the abstract, but when you throw a real life example in front of them, they wet their pants and run like rats with the lights turned on.


And people like you, -cowards-, post lies, claiming that some example has been made and a 'lifestyle' defended.

- The only real post I've made on this thread concerned the golden rule.
- All others are in response to you hypocrites, busy discussing your favorite subject, titillating forms of sex. Weird folks.
222 posted on 08/10/2002 9:47:00 AM PDT by tpaine
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To: VA Advogado; Texaggie79
To: Texaggie79
Wow, even other Libertarians have problems with "The paine"

Paine reminds me of an insect trying to escape the toilet bowl before he's flushed. He knows what inevitably awaits him :)
216 posted on 8/10/02 6:27 AM Pacific by VA Advogado
________________________________
VA, you might note that tex at least had the courage to flag me when he posted that bit of nonsense.
- Your comment, of course, makes NO sense at all, - its pure vitriol. You are one sick weirdo, VA.
223 posted on 08/10/2002 9:54:44 AM PDT by tpaine
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To: RnMomof7
There are some things that are written in your heart as wrong

Exactly. And they can only be there if they were put there.

224 posted on 08/10/2002 9:58:29 AM PDT by Texaggie79
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To: NYer
Every single pervert here should be put to death, by the quickest and most painful method possible. Hanging would be the most economical.

Those scumbags who slip through the cracks need to see some vigilante justice.

225 posted on 08/10/2002 10:00:02 AM PDT by fogarty
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To: Frapster
#1, Your assumption that we have 'accepted' the practive of homosexuality is wrong. Homosexuality itself is a biological deviance, and the behavior of sexual relations with the same sex a moral perversion.

#2, 'Consent' is a concept which has little meaning on an 11 year old boy. His 'consent' was influenced by the uncle or older male friend - his mind was not fully capable of deciding on his own. There is a reason why 18 is considered the legal age of adulthood for citizens - it is only after that point they are mature enough to make their own decisions and take one their own responsibilities.

#3, Moral standards and ethical values do not change. These are the fundamental building blocks of society - and you cannot assume that 're-thinking' these values will not have a disastrous impact on society. The last time a country 're-thought' its ethical values of human life, over 6 million Jews were slaughtered. "Revolutions" in moral principles usually end up in violence, death, and anarchy.

226 posted on 08/10/2002 10:08:07 AM PDT by fogarty
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To: RnMomof7
I guess is sex has no deeper meaning than a hobby you share with friends ..ya share your wife ..ya share your kids...
183 - Rmom
When your choice has victims..all bets are off. -Rmom
________________________________
The righteous pap & bull around here is getting deeper by the post. Did you have a point in addressing me to this thread?

-- Spit it out if you did.

227 posted on 08/10/2002 10:08:22 AM PDT by tpaine
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To: Texaggie79
There are some things that are written in your heart as wrong. Rmom

Exactly. And they can only be there if they were put there.
_________________________________
Pious bull.

- The golden rule is reasoned, self evident truth. - The basis for all law and morals.
--- You don't want to be hurt? - Don't hurt others.
228 posted on 08/10/2002 10:17:29 AM PDT by tpaine
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To: tpaine
"Hurt" can be defined MANY different ways. Without God, one would have quite an argument that intergenerational sexual relationships are not harmful, at all, to the minor.
229 posted on 08/10/2002 10:26:00 AM PDT by Texaggie79
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To: fogarty

#1, Your assumption that we have 'accepted' the practive of homosexuality is wrong. Homosexuality itself is a biological deviance, and the behavior of sexual relations with the same sex a moral perversion.

#2, 'Consent' is a concept which has little meaning on an 11 year old boy. His 'consent' was influenced by the uncle or older male friend - his mind was not fully capable of deciding on his own. There is a reason why 18 is considered the legal age of adulthood for citizens - it is only after that point they are mature enough to make their own decisions and take one their own responsibilities.

#3, Moral standards and ethical values do not change. These are the fundamental building blocks of society - and you cannot assume that 're-thinking' these values will not have a disastrous impact on society. The last time a country 're-thought' its ethical values of human life, over 6 million Jews were slaughtered. "Revolutions" in moral principles usually end up in violence, death, and anarchy.

I don't disagree with the essence of your first point except to point out that while you, I and others have not accepted homosexuality per se - there is no question that our society in general has accepted and we are forced to live in context of it every day at one level or another. Our taxes certainly go towards promoting that lifestyle one way or the other.

In your second point - we've discussed this issue at length in this thread so I'd refer you to those discussions. My response is this - I agree that an 11 year old boy is not capable of making a decision based on informed consent on the issue of sex with someone his own age or adults. However, that does not keep others from believing that nor does it keep them from trying to find those who agree with them and promote their lifestyle.

And for your third point - I agree - moral standards and ethical values do not change but I would add that they do not change in context of their source. I would also agree that they are the fundamental building blocks of society but let us not forget that society, for reasons of expediency, can choose to reject those fundamentals. Your example of Hitler's Nazi Germany is a perfect example. Pardon me while I oversimplify the process of how Nazi Germany ended up where it was but essentially it's summed up with the notion that if you tell a lie often enough and long enough eventually people will believe it.

So my response is that I agree with your points. We're essentially on the same side - but my fear is that we'll let history repeat itself and the unthinkable will eventually become the thinkable.

230 posted on 08/10/2002 10:27:38 AM PDT by Frapster
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To: tpaine
- Your comment, of course, makes NO sense at all, - its pure vitriol. You are one sick weirdo, VA.

Sure, until you accept the premise that you're an insect. :)

231 posted on 08/10/2002 10:43:41 AM PDT by VA Advogado
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To: Texaggie79
There are some things that are written in your heart as wrong. Rmom

Exactly. And they can only be there if they were put there. - tex

Pious bull.
- The golden rule is reasoned, self evident truth. - The basis for all law and morals.
--- You don't want to be hurt? - Don't hurt others.

"Hurt" can be defined MANY different ways.

Exactly. Part of my point, that the golden rule is a basic truth.

Without God, one would have quite an argument that intergenerational sexual relationships are not harmful, at all, to the minor.

Yours is a bizarre idea. -- Why? What do YOUR ideas about god have to do with how ALL of us treat one another?
- Obviously 'we' do not want our children molested. - We've built up a code of laws, under a constitution, dealing with such matters.
-- Are you advocating some change in those rules & concepts?

232 posted on 08/10/2002 10:43:48 AM PDT by tpaine
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To: VA Advogado
You make my points, about your weirdness, -- with your every post. Thanks
233 posted on 08/10/2002 10:46:31 AM PDT by tpaine
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To: tpaine; Roscoe; Dane
You're really taking a beating on this thread. Don't you think its time to put up the white flag before I call Roscoe and Dane?
234 posted on 08/10/2002 10:49:27 AM PDT by VA Advogado
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To: tpaine
NOPE I just included VA's libertarian list...and you were on it......In a society we can live without external controls as long as the inner ones are working..obviously as we read here man is not ready for it....thus the checks and balances..
235 posted on 08/10/2002 10:50:24 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: Frapster
Pardon me while I oversimplify the process of how Nazi Germany ended up where it was but essentially it's summed up with the notion that if you tell a lie often enough and long enough eventually people will believe it.

So my response is that I agree with your points. We're essentially on the same side - but my fear is that we'll let history repeat itself and the unthinkable will eventually become the thinkable.
_________________________________
So apparently, you would favor government restrictions on free speech, to control how deviants lie about their lifestyles.

You don't see the Catch 22.
The fatherland did exactly that.
236 posted on 08/10/2002 11:05:01 AM PDT by tpaine
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To: tpaine
I can't quite understand why so many here agonize so much over such a simple common sense issue.

Jeeze, tp ... we actually agree twice in the same week!

It is a simple common sense issue, because it is wrong. Just plain wrong. (You and I can argue about why it's wrong some other time....)

I think what's going on here is the same thing that seems to plague conservatives and libertarians against any number of liberal initiatives: we play by certain rules, and expect the other side to play by the same rules. And so we reason with them -- expecting that our "shared beliefs" will impel them to come to our conclusions.

But of course we do share the same beliefs with those for whom pedophilia (or whatever) is not necessarily a bad thing. We disagree, and our reasoned arguments do not sway them.

Now we come to the real crux of the issue: for whatever reason, we are loathe to "force" our point of view on the other side -- even for something so clearly wrong. And so, in order to get some resolution, we compromise. (The other side knows this, plays to it, and indeed counts on it.)

So even such "common sense" issues as pedophilia or child pornography become grounds for "reasoned debate," and instead of nailing up perverts by their genitals, we compromise with them.

All because we won't say "it's just plain wrong, and it's not allowed."

237 posted on 08/10/2002 11:06:58 AM PDT by r9etb
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To: tpaine
- The golden rule is reasoned, self evident truth. - The basis for all law and morals. --- You don't want to be hurt? - Don't hurt others.

The golden rule is not at all self-evident. If it were truly self-evident, everybody would follow it. But in fact there are alternatives that have been proven to work as well, or maybe even better for those who can pull it off.

For example, I can also avoid getting hurt by becoming King, and killing or enslaving all who might harm me. If I'm a successful king, I can even pay people to do my dirty work for me. And even if one is not capable enough to be king, one can get very nearly the same effect (not being hurt) by being one of his loyal henchpeople.

238 posted on 08/10/2002 11:21:31 AM PDT by r9etb
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To: VA Advogado
You're really taking a beating on this thread.

No, only in your weirdo imaginings do you see yourself beating me. -- This is a symptom me-boyo. Get professional help.

Don't you think its time to put up the white flag before I call Roscoe and Dane?

They are as bad off mentally as you. - But hey, call in ALL your authoritarian socialist buddies. They're always good for a laugh.

239 posted on 08/10/2002 11:35:35 AM PDT by tpaine
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To: r9etb
It is a simple common sense issue, because it is wrong. Just plain wrong. (You and I can argue about why it's wrong some other time....)
________________________________

Exactly, -- we don't even NEED to argue why it is wrong.
-- 'We all', in essence, made those arguments before we ratifed our constitution, and agreed to live and let live, under common law using common sense.

-- Nothing has changed in human nature since then, - and the constitutions principles are still valid.
240 posted on 08/10/2002 11:43:54 AM PDT by tpaine
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