Posted on 07/05/2002 12:26:31 PM PDT by Khepera
What is the problem with evolutionists referring to "Mother Nature?"
I've got tons of fishing magazines at home; they're laying everywhere. This one is entitled In-Fisherman and it is one of the best fishing magazines around. It's very helpful in educating you about fishing--fresh-water fishing in particular. But they have these short sections in the beginning--snippets, side-bar type things. This one is entitled "New View of Eye-Spots." It talks about how they are reassessing why these creatures have eye-spots. The purpose for eye-spots, according to evolutionary theory, is to trick the larger fish into attacking the eye-spot and away from the vulnerable spot on the fish in order to give the shad a chance to get away. But now there's a case of a shad, which is a small bait fish that larger fish eat, that has an eye-spot right in the middle of its body, which seems to be the most vulnerable spot. Why would they have an eye-spot there if the purpose of an eye-spot is to provide a protective advantage for the shad?
There's a comment made in the article, "The spots on the sides of shad may have evolved as a way to help the species maintain formation while schooling or spawning and not for defense against predators." Here's another case where you have the evolution language mixed with design language. It "may have evolved as a way to help." In other words, there is a purpose for this and that's to help schooling fish. It's so interesting when one explanation based on evolution doesn't work and they try to come up with another explanation, but both of these explanations imply design and purpose.
I then began reading a book called Big Bass Magic . This author is quite a conservationist, and I'm glad for that. He advocates catch and release, which is big among bass fishermen because we catch our fish for the sport of it and then let them go unharmed. Of course, then they can return to their natural habitat, spawn and enjoy a long life there and maybe be caught again, so we have a resource that is maintained.
The author writes this unusual paragraph. Listen carefully to the words: "Generally, today's fish management has its roots in the agencies and programs of the forties. The purpose at that time was to determine how to exploit what was considered the lavishly over-abundant fish resource."
Let me pause for a moment. He used the word "purpose." Who has the purpose? Fish management people, right? "The purpose at the time was to determine how to better exploit what was considered the lavishly over-abundant fish resource."
He continues, "We often still find that attitude in fish management today, and it is typified by the much publicized statement that any fish that grows up, dies of old age and is never caught is a wasted resource. Well, that presumes that in nature no purpose is served by the complete life of that fish, and it is too much for me to take when that is denied. Nature would not allow a bass, for instance, to reach ten pounds if a bass that size served no purpose in the balance of the ecosystem."
If you are an evolutionist, you are not a theist in the sense that your theism has anything to do with the real world.
He's saying, look, older bass, bigger bass, the ones that people catch and hang on their wall really serve a purpose in the ecosystem. Notice how he used the word purpose to describe the intent of fishery management and then he used the word purpose to describe the intent of nature. Now, what the heck is that? Nature is not a person, therefore nature cannot have intent. Only agents have intents. Nature doesn't. Nature is just a general way of describing the accident of cause and effect in a naturalistic system. So to say that nature has a purpose that is served by the complete life of the fish in the ecosystem is to say something that is nonsense. It's ironic that it is said so glibly without a blush by a man who is deeply committed to evolution.
Now, I think that his gut-level observation is accurate. I think it seems clear that there is some purpose for the full life span of different species, but we can only make a comment like that if there is someone behind the scenes that is purposing, such that the things that we see have purposes. I think it is obvious there is a designer and that's why it is very easy for this man to talk about the purpose of individuals in wildlife management in the same breath as talking about the purpose of nature. It appears that both nature and wildlife management individuals are people that purpose. I think he is right, but nature is not like a mother nature that is to be worshipped. What we call nature is really the purposes of God. It is so obvious that even this evolutionist can't speak in such a way as to avoid that conclusion, which goes to make another point.
If you are an evolutionist, you are not a theist in the sense that your theism has anything to do with the real world. If you want to believe in God and believe in evolution, fine, go ahead and do that, but don't act like your belief in God has anything to do with the real world. It doesn't. Your belief about the real world is evolution, and that means time and chance. If you believe that God has something to do with the real world, then you can't be an evolutionist because evolution is run by chance, not by God, by definition.
Secondly, if you are an evolutionist, then please be honest with yourself and everyone else and abandon this Mother Nature language and all of this purpose talk that you invariably allow to be smuggled into your language when talking about the natural realm. You are rationally obliged, if you want to be intellectually honest, to refer to the rest of the time/space continuum world in entirely chance terms. No more Mother Nature language. No more purpose language. No more design language. Nothing.
I think if you consistently talk in a way that fits your basic world view you will see how ridiculous that world ends up being. It becomes untenable. It can't be held because the world is obviously designed. Things obviously fit into ecosystems with a particular purpose. They obviously have their place. Bodies are obviously artifacts. Mouths were made for eating. Hands were made for grasping. Legs were made for walking. They don't just happen to do that because they accidentally formed that way through the forces of nature acting on mindless matter. That, by the way, is the thing that gives human beings purpose. Not only are their bodies purposeful but their lives are purposeful as well.
Why? There is an intelligent Creator who is behind everything. A Creator we see quite obviously, as Paul says in the book of Romans, and as you say consistently every time you use the words Mother Nature.
That bull's got some extra parts...
You mean the biblical heaven and hell are just like that remorable episode of Twilight Zone?
- Mark Twain
19 BASIC PROBLEMS Here are the facts in the rocks which destroy evolutionary theory.
1 - Lowest levels are just as complex. It is an astounding fact that the lowest strata, the Cambrian, contains a variety of creatures from every phylum, and they have complicated internal structures.
The mathematics needed to work out the lens structure of trilobites was not invented until the 19th century.—p. 25.
2 - Sudden appearance of life. The lowest strata containing fossils is the Cambrian. (Below that is the Precambrian, with no fossils other than an occasional algae.) Called the "Cambrian explosion" by scientists, it is a sudden appearance of billions of fossils of over a thousand different life forms.
Yet they are all distinct species, with nothing leading up to them. Every major life group (phyla) has been found in the Cambrian strata.
This situation is contrary to evolutionary theory, but quite nicely agrees with what happened during the Genesis Flood. For example, plants would have been washed into higher levels, but their seeds could be found in the lower levels.—p. 27.
3 - No life below the Cambrian. Below the Cambrian, in the Precambrian, essentially nothing living is to be found.
But above it, in the Cambrian, are over 1,500 different species, including one which is two-feet long.—pp. 28, 30.
4 - No transitional species. This is one of the most significant findings of over a century of digs. Only distinct species have been found, no half species. This now amounts to over 100 million fossils in thousands of museums and collections.
In order for evolutionary theory to be correct, transitional species—partway between one true species and another which it is supposed to have evolved into—should have been found in massive numbers. But none have been found. Scientists are well-aware of this problem, and have a name for it. They call it "fossil gaps."
An example would be the squid and the octopus. They are the most complex of the invertebrates (animals without backbones). Yet they are found in most of the strata levels. Careful research has disclosed no transitional species leading to or from them. Regardless of the strata, the specimens are identical to those living today.
Another name for this problem is "missing links." The transitional species linking the species together are missing. —pp. 30-31.
5 - Abrupt appearance. Not only do the smaller, slower moving creatures, in the Cambrian, suddenly appear in the fossil record,—the larger creatures appear just as suddenly! And when they appear—they do so by the millions! Tigers, salmon, lions, pine trees, hawks, squirrels, horses, and on and on! And always with no transitional species leading to or away from them.—p. 33.
6 - Stasis. "Stasis" means to retain a certain form, to remain unchanged. Each creature first appears in the fossil record with a certain shape and structure; it then continues on "for millions of years" through several strata, and then either becomes extinct or continues on to the present. Sometimes evolutionists declare it to have "become extinct millions of years ago,"—but then it is found alive today! Whichever of the three occurs, the creature does not change in shape or structure.—pp. 33-34.
7 - Not enough species. According to evolutionary theory, there ought to have been a massive number of species changes in ancient times, yet we do not find any of them in the fossil record. We just do not find the intermediary species that link the species we have.—pp. 34-35.
8 - Larger anciently than today. This is an odd fact, and it also opposes evolutionary theory. Ancient plants and animals tended to be larger—often much larger—than they are now. Many examples of this could be cited. But extinction and reduction in size run counter to evolutionary theory.—pp. 35, 37.
9 - No family tree. We are often shown a sketch of the evolutionary family tree, yet no such tree exists. The tips of the branches represent the various species, but the branches and trunk are missing.—p. 37.
10 - No geologic column. The rock strata is supposed to represent evolved species, but it is not a column.
Strata are missing and fossils are mixed together through many strata, and this includes index fossils. It is all one big confusion.—pp. 37-38.
11 - Immense numbers of fossils. Why are there so many fossils? Immense numbers are to be found. Only an immense, worldwide catastrophe could have produced such a situation. All the evidence points to the fact that vast fossil beds of plants and animals were buried by the Flood.—pp. 40-41.
12 - Not made now. It is impossible to make a fossil now. Researchers have tried to do it on dry ground and in swamps. But the plants rot; they do not turn to fossils. Rapid burial and immense pressure is needed to make a fossil.—p. 41.
13 - Rapid burial. It is clear that the fossils were buried with extreme rapidity. There are many examples of one fish eating another—just as both were buried. Quick, high compression occurred. Sharks have been found flattened to ¼ inch in thickness, from one side to the other, but with their tail fully erect. They were not sick, but in the prime of health.—pp. 41-42.
14 - Fossil footprints. Many instances of fossil footprints have been found. This evidence points to a worldwide flood. Birds were buried on or about the same levels as their footprints. But non-dinosaur reptiles and dinosaurs left tracks well below the levels where the bulk of their bodies were found. They were walking around earlier in the Flood and then later buried by it.—p. 42.
15 - Plants and animals not together. Evolutionary theory teaches that plants and animals drop to the ground, die, and make fossils. Yet the evidence reveals that plants and animals are generally piled up separately. This would be the case if they were washed into place by a gigantic flood.—pp. 42-43.
16 - Living fossils. A number of the creatures found in the fossil record no longer exist. This is proclaimed as a proof of evolution, but it is only evidence of extinction. Extinction is not evolution.
Many of the extinct creatures are said to have died out millions of years ago, for their bones are not found in "younger" strata.
Yet some of them have been found to be alive today! They are called "living fossils." One was the coelacanth fish, which has been "extinct" since the Cretaceous period, supposedly 70 million years ago. It was classified as an "index fossil" until 1938, when it was known to be alive and well in deep water, off the coast of South Africa.
If long ages elapsed between each strata, it would be impossible for the coelacanth to disappear for all that time. (Each species must either remain alive or become extinct. If a species becomes extinct, it cannot come back to life.)
But if the strata was caused by the worldwide Flood, which only occurred a few thousand years ago, there would be no problem. The strata were all laid down over a fairly short period of time.—pp. 44-45.
17 - Extinct dinosaurs. Evolutionists point to the dinosaurs as outstanding evidence of evolution. Yet they only show that creatures died out in earlier times. Extinction is not evolution.
In order for the dinosaur to prove evolution, there would have to be transitional forms leading up to them. But, like everything else, the dinosaurs are distinct species.—pp. 45-46.
18 - None of the fossils or strata are ancient. Fossils from every level have been analyzed by carbon 14 dating. Scientists have been shocked to find traces of amino acids in all strata levels! This means that all the fossil-bearing strata were laid down fairly recently and at about the same time.
For example, seashells from the Jurassic strata ("135-180 million years ago"), have amino acids and protein residue still within them. So they cannot be more than a few thousand years old.—pp. 46-47.
19 - Human remains in ancient deposits. Modern men and women are only supposed to have existed on earth for the past 2 million years, and therefore should only be found in Quaternary strata.
Yet human fossils have been found in many different levels, and human footprints have been found in the Cambrian level. These facts totally violate evolutionary theory.—p. 47.
231 posted on 7/7/02 1:22 PM Pacific by razorbak
19 BASIC PROBLEMS Here are the facts in the rocks which destroy evolutionary theory.
1 - Lowest levels are just as complex. It is an astounding fact that the lowest strata, the Cambrian, contains a variety of creatures from every phylum, and they have complicated internal structures.
The mathematics needed to work out the lens structure of trilobites was not invented until the 19th century.—p. 25.
2 - Sudden appearance of life. The lowest strata containing fossils is the Cambrian. (Below that is the Precambrian, with no fossils other than an occasional algae.) Called the "Cambrian explosion" by scientists, it is a sudden appearance of billions of fossils of over a thousand different life forms.
Yet they are all distinct species, with nothing leading up to them. Every major life group (phyla) has been found in the Cambrian strata.
This situation is contrary to evolutionary theory, but quite nicely agrees with what happened during the Genesis Flood. For example, plants would have been washed into higher levels, but their seeds could be found in the lower levels.—p. 27.
3 - No life below the Cambrian. Below the Cambrian, in the Precambrian, essentially nothing living is to be found.
But above it, in the Cambrian, are over 1,500 different species, including one which is two-feet long.—pp. 28, 30.
4 - No transitional species. This is one of the most significant findings of over a century of digs. Only distinct species have been found, no half species. This now amounts to over 100 million fossils in thousands of museums and collections.
In order for evolutionary theory to be correct, transitional species—partway between one true species and another which it is supposed to have evolved into—should have been found in massive numbers. But none have been found. Scientists are well-aware of this problem, and have a name for it. They call it "fossil gaps."
An example would be the squid and the octopus. They are the most complex of the invertebrates (animals without backbones). Yet they are found in most of the strata levels. Careful research has disclosed no transitional species leading to or from them. Regardless of the strata, the specimens are identical to those living today.
Another name for this problem is "missing links." The transitional species linking the species together are missing. —pp. 30-31.
5 - Abrupt appearance. Not only do the smaller, slower moving creatures, in the Cambrian, suddenly appear in the fossil record,—the larger creatures appear just as suddenly! And when they appear—they do so by the millions! Tigers, salmon, lions, pine trees, hawks, squirrels, horses, and on and on! And always with no transitional species leading to or away from them.—p. 33.
6 - Stasis. "Stasis" means to retain a certain form, to remain unchanged. Each creature first appears in the fossil record with a certain shape and structure; it then continues on "for millions of years" through several strata, and then either becomes extinct or continues on to the present. Sometimes evolutionists declare it to have "become extinct millions of years ago,"—but then it is found alive today! Whichever of the three occurs, the creature does not change in shape or structure.—pp. 33-34.
7 - Not enough species. According to evolutionary theory, there ought to have been a massive number of species changes in ancient times, yet we do not find any of them in the fossil record. We just do not find the intermediary species that link the species we have.—pp. 34-35.
8 - Larger anciently than today. This is an odd fact, and it also opposes evolutionary theory. Ancient plants and animals tended to be larger—often much larger—than they are now. Many examples of this could be cited. But extinction and reduction in size run counter to evolutionary theory.—pp. 35, 37.
9 - No family tree. We are often shown a sketch of the evolutionary family tree, yet no such tree exists. The tips of the branches represent the various species, but the branches and trunk are missing.—p. 37.
10 - No geologic column. The rock strata is supposed to represent evolved species, but it is not a column.
Strata are missing and fossils are mixed together through many strata, and this includes index fossils. It is all one big confusion.—pp. 37-38.
11 - Immense numbers of fossils. Why are there so many fossils? Immense numbers are to be found. Only an immense, worldwide catastrophe could have produced such a situation. All the evidence points to the fact that vast fossil beds of plants and animals were buried by the Flood.—pp. 40-41.
12 - Not made now. It is impossible to make a fossil now. Researchers have tried to do it on dry ground and in swamps. But the plants rot; they do not turn to fossils. Rapid burial and immense pressure is needed to make a fossil.—p. 41.
13 - Rapid burial. It is clear that the fossils were buried with extreme rapidity. There are many examples of one fish eating another—just as both were buried. Quick, high compression occurred. Sharks have been found flattened to ¼ inch in thickness, from one side to the other, but with their tail fully erect. They were not sick, but in the prime of health.—pp. 41-42.
14 - Fossil footprints. Many instances of fossil footprints have been found. This evidence points to a worldwide flood. Birds were buried on or about the same levels as their footprints. But non-dinosaur reptiles and dinosaurs left tracks well below the levels where the bulk of their bodies were found. They were walking around earlier in the Flood and then later buried by it.—p. 42.
15 - Plants and animals not together. Evolutionary theory teaches that plants and animals drop to the ground, die, and make fossils. Yet the evidence reveals that plants and animals are generally piled up separately. This would be the case if they were washed into place by a gigantic flood.—pp. 42-43.
16 - Living fossils. A number of the creatures found in the fossil record no longer exist. This is proclaimed as a proof of evolution, but it is only evidence of extinction. Extinction is not evolution.
Many of the extinct creatures are said to have died out millions of years ago, for their bones are not found in "younger" strata.
Yet some of them have been found to be alive today! They are called "living fossils." One was the coelacanth fish, which has been "extinct" since the Cretaceous period, supposedly 70 million years ago. It was classified as an "index fossil" until 1938, when it was known to be alive and well in deep water, off the coast of South Africa.
If long ages elapsed between each strata, it would be impossible for the coelacanth to disappear for all that time. (Each species must either remain alive or become extinct. If a species becomes extinct, it cannot come back to life.)
But if the strata was caused by the worldwide Flood, which only occurred a few thousand years ago, there would be no problem. The strata were all laid down over a fairly short period of time.—pp. 44-45.
17 - Extinct dinosaurs. Evolutionists point to the dinosaurs as outstanding evidence of evolution. Yet they only show that creatures died out in earlier times. Extinction is not evolution.
In order for the dinosaur to prove evolution, there would have to be transitional forms leading up to them. But, like everything else, the dinosaurs are distinct species.—pp. 45-46.
18 - None of the fossils or strata are ancient. Fossils from every level have been analyzed by carbon 14 dating. Scientists have been shocked to find traces of amino acids in all strata levels! This means that all the fossil-bearing strata were laid down fairly recently and at about the same time.
For example, seashells from the Jurassic strata ("135-180 million years ago"), have amino acids and protein residue still within them. So they cannot be more than a few thousand years old.—pp. 46-47.
19 - Human remains in ancient deposits. Modern men and women are only supposed to have existed on earth for the past 2 million years, and therefore should only be found in Quaternary strata.
Yet human fossils have been found in many different levels, and human footprints have been found in the Cambrian level. These facts totally violate evolutionary theory.—p. 47.
231 posted on 7/7/02 1:22 PM Pacific by razorbak
Why I No Longer Debate Idiots.
THE CRACKPOT INDEX . A simple method for rating potentially revolutionary contributions to physics.
Characterization of quack theories .
Evangelicals and Crackpot Science . Excellent essay and references.
Are You a Quack?.
An asteroid hitting the earth or a massive epidemic are not proof of creation either.
Already did. This is just a theory, not something I necessarily believe happened. I believe God is responsible for everything we see around us. I think it would be a little presumptuous for me to decide I knew exactly how he went about it.
an intellectual forgery promotion ring/scam---very lame.
God is the 'big cheese'---no holes...
the Bible says..."no shadow-spin"...
SATAN--evolution is the holes--gaps--cheese GAS!.
There is a tradeoff between objectivity(Truth)---subjectivity(ego)!
To gain one...you have to lose the other!
Einstein was wrong and widely acknowledged by his peers as having missed this crucial boat. Try Heisenberg for the contrary statement accepted as conclusively proven by all competent physicists.
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