English And Welsh Are Races Apart

BBC ^ | 6-30-2002

[LostTribe]

It is interesting that the Harp of the King David is the national symbol of Ireland. I think symbols like this persist long after language links have disappeared. (King David was of course an Israelite, but was not Jewish.)

[dr_who]

It is a representation of a bearded man.

[dr_who]

Was America a Phoenician Colony?

No.

[aristeides]

I am willing to consider evidence that I'm wrong. Do you have any?

[LostTribe]

Simply explain how you can be so cock sure the Norsemen totally lost their lingustic heritage IN ONLY THREE GENERATIONS or less, but everyone else you promote doesn't lose theirs in THOUSANDS OF YEARS!

It sounds like you simply don't know what you are talking about. Do you have a reasonable explanation for this astonishing disparity?

[aristeides]

Whether a conquering group loses its language depends on a number of factors, notably their relative numbers and whether or not they consider themselves culturally superior to those they conquer. Those conditions can vary.

I am just unaware of any evidence that the Normans who conquered England (and Sicily and Wales and Ireland, eventually) spoke any other language besides Norman French (and eventually the languages of the places they conquered). I am unaware of any evidence that these Normans spoke either their ancestral Scandinavian or any Celtic dialect that might have survived in Normandy (as far as I know, no such dialect survived). It may be difficult to explain why they lost their ancestral language so quickly, if they did. But unless and until I am faced with evidence that they did not lose it, I will assume that they did, in the face of all the evidence that their language was French (the language which had the most cultural prestige at the time, anyway, at least with the exception of Latin -- I will admit that I have been ignoring Latin, the language of the church and of the universities, once they got going, which was used throughout Europe).

[syriacus]

I only meant that I thought it was interesting that the two groups seemed to have chosen similar sounds. I have only heard the two languages. I don't know anything about the vocabulary or the grammar of either language. (Other than a tiny bit about the origins and translations of family names and place names).

[blam]

ASLIP (The association for the study of language in prehistory)

Is this any help?

[aristeides]

Thanks for the link.

[LostTribe]

> It may be difficult to explain why they lost their ancestral language so quickly, if they did. But unless and until I am faced with evidence that they did not lose it, I will assume that they did,

Thank You,  I appreciate your candor.  None of which has anything to do with The Lost Tribes of Israel becoming the Celts/Europeans/Americans/Christians of today.

[aristeides]

Well, speaking as someone who's about as pure Gaelic as you get in Ireland (to judge by great grandparents' names, I'm one-eighth Norman, one-eighth Old English, and three-quarters Gaelic,) I must say I have no consciousness of being part of any lost tribe of Israel.

[muawiyah]

"I am totally unaware of any evidence of their speaking some Celtic dialect."

To start with not all the men who attended William in the recovery of Great Britain to civilization were Normans! Secondly, not all the Normans spoke Norman-French. Thirdly, Norman-French was not necessarily a widespoken language, even in Normandy, if it was, in fact, spoken at all.

What you may or may not be personally aware of has no impact whatsoever on the reality of any given situation.

Since it's not my purpose to teach you about the Romantic Languages, I am going to leave you guessing about Gallo. Was it like French, or was it like Irish? The answer is on the Internet!

[LostTribe]

> I must say I have no consciousness of being part of any lost tribe of Israel.

Neither do I. Bad memory I suppose. --ggg--. But we are both as Celtic as they come.

Just view the Celts from their global perspective, even a continental European one, not a narrow traditional Irish, English or Brittainy one, and the curtains will part. -Regards

[muawiyah]

Bagpipes are attributed to the Romans. They were adopted by Gaelic speakers. While the rest of Europe rusted away in the Dark Ages, the Celtic Fringe raised their use to a high art.

[muawiyah]

I'd like to note that one of the hallmarks of what is known as the "English filter" is the attempt to deny any legitimacy to any element of Celtic civilization, culture or history.

We know all about the "English filter" these days and most knowledgeable people are instantly prepared to refute or rebut it as required.

[aristeides]

Since you're the one who's challenging received and settled opinion, it seems to me the burden of proof is on you. By the way, I looked up "Gallo" in my Encyclopaedia Britannica and found nothing. I then looked up "Normans" and "Normandy," and found no mention of their speaking any other language than Norman French. I am willing to look at any evidence you may provide.

[muawiyah]

From a list of English Kings:  Notice the guys who lived in Anjou.  They spoke Gallo.  They probably knew French, but in their day French still consisted of many dialects.  William "The Conqueror" probably knew Gallo quite well.  Else he might not have been able to speak with his closest advisors.  I suspect we can find evidence that he understood Breton, and probably a couple of German dialects.

King/Queen	reign	Royal House
William I	1066-1087	Normandy	`The Conqueror'
William II	1087-1100	Normandy	`Rufus'
Henry I	1100-1135	Normandy	`Beauclerc'
Stephen	1135-1141, 1141-1154	Blois
Matilda	1141 (April-Nov)	Normandy	`Empress Maud'
Henry II	1154-1189	Anjou
Richard I	1189-1199	Anjou	`Coeur de Lion'
John	1199-1216	Anjou	`Lackland'
Henry III	1216-1272	Anjou
Edward I	1272-1307	Anjou	`Longshanks'
Edward II	1307-1327	Anjou	`of Caernarfon'
Edward III	1327-1377	Anjou
Richard II	1377-1399	Anjou
Henry IV	1399-1413	Anjou
Henry V	1413-1422	Anjou	(Prince Hal)
Henry VI	1422-1461, 1470-1471	Anjou
Edward IV	1461-1470, 1471-1483	Anjou
Edward V	1483 (April-June)	Anjou
Richard III	1483-1485	Anjou

[muawiyah]

Uhh, you were aware, of course, that England was ruled for a very long time from Anjou, in Brittany?

Wouldn't want you to think I am tricking you. Nosirreebob!

[aristeides]

English is now unfashionable, and Celtic is now fashionable. I prefer to take no part in PC. My idiotic nationalist Irish relatives spurn Christianity, and give their children names like "Orla." It reminds of nothing so much as the Nazified Germans of a couple of generations ago.

No doubt the English treated my Irish people abominably. But that does not mean that humanity does not owe the English an enormous debt for their other deeds..

Blacks in this country seem, for whatever reason, unable to recognize this truth about whites in this country. I refuse to share their error.

[blam]

"While the rest of Europe rusted away in the Dark Ages, the Celtic Fringe raised their use to a high art."

The Dark Ages was worldwide.