[crystalk]

This comes across with more than a slight whiff of anti-Christian bigotry, even to a rather staid mainstream Christian like me. It is rather as if I wrote an article that suggested, that at least on alternate passovers, I tended to suspect men in skullcaps anywhere near wells or Gentile babies. Too paranoid, too medieval.

-- Too much tendency to imagine that EVEN TODAY, somehow Christians were better off than Jews and were in a position to offer them money and rewards for converting, or for that matter would have any interest specifically in JEWS converting, rather than merely in saving any lost souls regardless of ethnicity...

That said, I will very quickly point out errors of fact for those who may not be familiar with the subject.

a. The ruling of Israel's supreme court allows more or less free immigration to Israel by persons who have converted TO Judaism, but under the auspices of Reform or Conservative rather than Orthodox, rabbis. I cannot see how it affects persons who are Christian, even if they once were Jews.

b. There is no "Christian sect" calling itself Messianic Judaism. What exist are about 60,000 individuals in the world, so I hear, and about 100 congregations all independent of each other, which have the most various and different belief, practice, and ethnic composition-- and are constantly arguing with each other.

c. The total annual budget for missions of all the non-Catholic, non-Orthodox, churches in the USA is about one billion dollars. For his statement to be true, a tenth of that would have to be devoted to evangelizing of Jews. I doubt that ANY of it is so targeted, I have never heard that any was, in any church I ever attended. Most goes to Africa or other third-world aid and areas.

d. I am aware of a few congregations--and quite a few individuals, who call themselves "Messianic Jews" even though they precisely are evangelical Protestants, even dispensationalists, in every belief and practice, so he is right in saying that such do exist. Just a few Hebrew words and trappings. But there are also many other congregations and individuals, that differ quite sharply with Christians, evangelical or not, and have moved their belief and practice way, way, over toward Judaism, observing Shabbat, kosher laws, Torah scrolls, and several dozen other differences with ANY other or earlier existing forms of Christianity, at least since the first few centuries of this era...[I will add other posts later if I feel my other comments are useful]...

[crystalk]

crystalkery ping

[week 71]

I've heard their are about 14 million Jews in the world, and about 1% are Christian; making that around about 144,000. 10,000 from each tribe. Just kidding :-) Interesting read.

[kezekiel]

According to the Court, Christian converts from Judaism are no longer Jews under the ‘Law of Return,’ which deals primarily with Jewish immigration.

So in other words, Karl Marx could make aliyah, but the Apostle Paul could not. Brilliant. Open the door to Noam Chomsky and Bernardine Dohrn, but close it to Jews who believe that Jesus was the Messiah.

What about Jewish New Agers, Jewish agnostics, or Jewish atheists? When does one stop being a Jew because of what they believe?

[BunnySlippers]

If anyone has a driving need to see the Pearl video, it's here:

http://grog260.tripod.com/pearl.html

[onedoug]

Personally, I was never so Christian till I understood more Judaism.

[sonserae]

Judaism is a blood-line thing. Once a Jew, always a Jew. Someone can't become Caucasian if they were born black...unless you are Michael Jackson of course. A Messianic Jew is actually completing his Judaism by accepting Christ as His Messiah. If you end Judaism with the Old Testament, it's incomplete....for the whole purpose of completion is for the Messiah to come. Since the temple was destroyed, the Jews actually can't even practice their Judaism under the law because they are required to worship and give sacrifices in the temple...and that doesn't exist any longer. Jesus was actually the ultimate sacrifice...the unblemished lamb...By His sacrifice, our sins were redeemed once and for all forever....no more need for making regular sacrifices of animals. Since He sent the Holy Spirit, we know longer have to go "to a place" to get redemption...but He lives in our hearts. For that, we are free, not only from sin, but from having to abide by the laws and worship in a temple. The completed Jew is the one who believes that Christ is the Messiah. Christ makes Judaism make perfect sense....

[Maximus_Ridiculousness]

This is so true. We used to have a "messianic jew" in the office.

All she did was make her way thru the cubicals to preach.

She doesn't work here anymore...

[razorbak]

Under the guise of ‘Jews for Jesus’ and ‘Hebrew Christians,’ a new threat of spiritual terrorism has emerged in the form of ‘messianic congregations,’ whose theological tenets are identical to the Christian fundamentalists who created them. Their ultimate goal is the eradication of the Jewish people through assimilation to Christianity.

What hysterical foolishness. Their organizations are not a "guise," they tell you exactly what they are. "Spiritual terrorism"-- pulleese--spare us the demagoguery. Their ultimate goal is to witness to everyone about their faith in Christ--not to eradicate Jewish people. What venemous billious crock.

Could it be that their zeal might be due to the fact that their Messiah, a Jew, Jesus Christ of Nazareth commanded them:

Matt.28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: {teach...: or, make disciples, or, Christians of all nations} 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Rom.1:15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also. 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Christianity gives its followers a mandate to preach the gospel or witness to every person on the faith of the earth. And that we will do. If we made an exception for Jews, we would be anti-Semitic, not the other way around. Anyone has the freedom to share his faith, and anyone has the freedom to reject or to accept the message.

[drq]

"a new threat of spiritual terrorism has emerged in the form of ‘messianic congregations,’ whose theological tenets are identical to the Christian fundamentalists who created them. Their ultimate goal is the eradication of the Jewish people through assimilation to Christianity. "


So now leading someone into a personal relationship with Jesus Christ is "terrorism"?

[remaininlight]

My own opinion is that many Christians who love Israel were Jews in a past life. It all comes 'round again.

[Michael2001]

These guys views of Christians is not very different from the Klans view of Jews and Catholics.

[monkeyshine]

Ping

[Jeremiah Jr]

The last verses of the TaNaKh

2 Chronicles 36

¹⁵ And the LORD God of their fathers sent warnings to them by His messengers, rising up early and sending them, because He had compassion on His people and on His dwelling place. ¹⁶But they mocked the messengers of God, despised His words, and scoffed at His prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against His people, till there was no remedy.
¹⁷Therefore He brought against them the king of the Chaldeans, who killed their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion on young man or virgin, on the aged or the weak; He gave them all into his hand. ¹⁸And all the articles from the house of God, great and small, the treasures of the house of the LORD, and the treasures of the king and of his leaders, all these he took to Babylon. ¹⁹Then they burned the house of God, broke down the wall of Jerusalem, burned all its palaces with fire, and destroyed all its precious possessions. ²⁰And those who escaped from the sword he carried away to Babylon, where they became servants to him and his sons until the rule of the kingdom of Persia, ²¹to fulfill the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her Sabbaths. As long as she lay desolate she kept Sabbath, to fulfill seventy years.


The Proclamation of Cyrus
²² Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and also put it in writing, saying,


²³Thus says Cyrus king of Persia:
4 All the kingdoms of the earth the LORD God of heaven has given me. And He has commanded me to build Him a house at Jerusalem which is in Judah. Who is among you of all His people? May the LORD his God be with him, and let him go up!


Compare with Matthew 22:1-14
Yom Melech HaMashiach

[2sheep]

Someone wrote about Israel that there are 4 million people there and 8 million opinions.  Certainly it would seem that Israel could do with less Muslim suicide-bombers and more people who would support them regardless of the addition of some Christians who hold every wind of doctrine.

As you know, there are among Christians many who hold the false doctrine of Replacement Theology (believing Christians replaced the Jews), who exalt themselves above the Jews although they were commanded not to do so in Romans 11.  The admonition was to not "boast against the branches" lest ye be cut off.  Nevertheless, many do.  That has been discussed many times on other threads.

Here is a couple of links from a Messianic site that describes the difference between Messianics who are returning to Judaism and those who are merely Christianized and hold the apostate doctrines of many Christian denominations.  There is a HUGE difference!

We are NOT Jews for Jesus

What is Messianic Judaism - Isn't it Just Christianity?

[Saundra Duffy]

BUMP for a Messianic Jew FReeper! Adam, is that really you? For victory & freedom!!!

[PaulKersey]

Bump to Lost Tribe.

[MissAmericanPie]

I use to have chats with Rabbi's, not actually with the Rabbi, I don't think they speak to Christians, but I would comment, one of the students would ask him, and he would answer the student.

They loved me because I loved them so much, and they wanted to find some way to convert me. They wanted to help me. I understand their view, for thousands of years they have done one thing perfectly, kept the Torah word for word. To them it is their history, and their revelation of the view God allowed them to have of Himself. Now as far as they can see, we Christians are not only messing with their history, we have a different view of God. We know we have a more complete view, they see it as a false view. Everything they are tells them to flee what they see as apostesy. Imagine that your view of God was limited to the first five books of the bible.

To them we are a terrible problem. That didn't make me love them less, and their attitude towards my Christianity will never effect my attitude towards them, they are my babies, my lambs.

I never preached or tried to convert, we discussed the written word and came to an understanding of the difference between Christians and Jews. Jews see the Torah as their history and the laws given to them by God. When a Christian reads the Torah, it is with Spiritual eyes that have been opened by the Spirit of God, which opens a whole panorama of prophecy, insights into God's plan, and where we will be eons from now.

To the Rabbi, intrusted with such a holy commandment to keep the Torah pure, we are a very big, confusing, irritating, foolish, problem, dangerous in their mind, to the future of the Torah, we are nothing more than spiritualists, not a good thing as spiritualism to them is idolatry.

Jesus said, I came to my own, and they did not know me. They will not know us either until God allows, He says they are blinded for our sakes, that makes me very tender hearted towards them. I say, how about a little understanding and forgiveness for where they are coming from.

[FreedomSurge]

A great many Jews think of this process of conversion as "A SECOND HOLOCAUST".

Christians should think about what the Jews really think of them.