Messianic Jews and Israel

arutzsheva | 5-14-02 | S. Alfassa Marks

[crystalk]

This comes across with more than a slight whiff of anti-Christian bigotry, even to a rather staid mainstream Christian like me. It is rather as if I wrote an article that suggested, that at least on alternate passovers, I tended to suspect men in skullcaps anywhere near wells or Gentile babies. Too paranoid, too medieval.

-- Too much tendency to imagine that EVEN TODAY, somehow Christians were better off than Jews and were in a position to offer them money and rewards for converting, or for that matter would have any interest specifically in JEWS converting, rather than merely in saving any lost souls regardless of ethnicity...

That said, I will very quickly point out errors of fact for those who may not be familiar with the subject.

a. The ruling of Israel's supreme court allows more or less free immigration to Israel by persons who have converted TO Judaism, but under the auspices of Reform or Conservative rather than Orthodox, rabbis. I cannot see how it affects persons who are Christian, even if they once were Jews.

b. There is no "Christian sect" calling itself Messianic Judaism. What exist are about 60,000 individuals in the world, so I hear, and about 100 congregations all independent of each other, which have the most various and different belief, practice, and ethnic composition-- and are constantly arguing with each other.

c. The total annual budget for missions of all the non-Catholic, non-Orthodox, churches in the USA is about one billion dollars. For his statement to be true, a tenth of that would have to be devoted to evangelizing of Jews. I doubt that ANY of it is so targeted, I have never heard that any was, in any church I ever attended. Most goes to Africa or other third-world aid and areas.

d. I am aware of a few congregations--and quite a few individuals, who call themselves "Messianic Jews" even though they precisely are evangelical Protestants, even dispensationalists, in every belief and practice, so he is right in saying that such do exist. Just a few Hebrew words and trappings. But there are also many other congregations and individuals, that differ quite sharply with Christians, evangelical or not, and have moved their belief and practice way, way, over toward Judaism, observing Shabbat, kosher laws, Torah scrolls, and several dozen other differences with ANY other or earlier existing forms of Christianity, at least since the first few centuries of this era...[I will add other posts later if I feel my other comments are useful]...

[crystalk]

crystalkery ping

[week 71]

I've heard their are about 14 million Jews in the world, and about 1% are Christian; making that around about 144,000. 10,000 from each tribe. Just kidding :-) Interesting read.

[Thinkin' Gal]

Isaiah 11:13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.

[kezekiel]

According to the Court, Christian converts from Judaism are no longer Jews under the ‘Law of Return,’ which deals primarily with Jewish immigration.

So in other words, Karl Marx could make aliyah, but the Apostle Paul could not. Brilliant. Open the door to Noam Chomsky and Bernardine Dohrn, but close it to Jews who believe that Jesus was the Messiah.

What about Jewish New Agers, Jewish agnostics, or Jewish atheists? When does one stop being a Jew because of what they believe?

[BunnySlippers]

If anyone has a driving need to see the Pearl video, it's here:

http://grog260.tripod.com/pearl.html

[tessalu]

We probably all have different definitions as to what is a "Jew". I have personally known Jews who have found Jesus to be their Saviour, and I consider them to be no less a Jew. They do not deserve to have their identity stripped from them, just because they found the Messiah, who is foretold in Isaiah.

[crystalk]

e. In his fifth paragraph, he says there are some 5000 Christians in Israel who are converts from Judaism. Surely that is vastly understated: maybe that is the membership of the Action Committee he mentions. My information is that there are about 40,000 Messianic Jews in Israel, not all openly engaging in public worship as such, and another 20,000 ethnic Jews who are (often discreetly) members of existing and established denominations as Baptists, Presbyterians, Methodists, etc. and even a few in Catholic and Orthodox churches there...

f. While he says these people, whatever their number, "worship THEIR god," he fails to say that is YHWH, Ha-Shem, the same god as Israel has. As to whether they proselytize, I am sure some do quite actively, but most don't, and that is their own individual activity. Nobody out here somewhere is paying them to do it!

[week 71]

As to whether they proselytize, I am sure some do quite actively, but most don't, and that is their own individual activity. Nobody out here somewhere is paying them to do it!

These people have a highly strategic plan, are well financed by mainstream Christian groups and have a single goal, to remove Jews from following the faith of their ancestors.

The above from the article rubs me the wrong way. It is how one would talk about a malicious organization. Yeshua Ha Meshiach (sp) is the God of their ancestors. One is certainly no less Jewish by Believing in Jesus!

[crystalk]

g. He says in his p.6 that the MJ's (and thus by implic Christians).."worship Jesus"... a troubling formulation a Christian would never use...We worship God, one God, and Jesus only as and to the extent that he was an avatar or apparition of that God...a revelation of Him...Just as the Holy Spirit is an aspect or "side" or "part" from our limited human perspective, of God...he has revealed himself to man in those three ways, and still does so, in each of the three, every day, but it is not a Trinity of gods, but a trinity of manifestations, of one God to man. Or so I understand it, please disregard unfamiliar vocabulary...

h. He says there are unqualified, and perhaps even non-Jewish, persons who are claiming to be able to convert persons TO Judaism, or even make them rabbis (give out "shlita" credentials certifying them as rabbis??) I had not heard of this, if this is happening it is an ordinary common-law fraud and ought to be stopped.

[GuillermoX]

I was about to ask where Dershowitz fits into this equation.

[crystalk]

i. He says in his p.5 that Christians are serving in the IDF and that they are there "witnessing" to their buddies in uniform about their faith.

I have heard of this, and even met guys who had done or were doing this, but this is the first time I ever heard there was anything sneaky or dishonest about it.

As I understand it, a qualified military man, or sometimes just a healthy volunteer of approp age and type, is perfectly free to enlist in the IDF regardless of his being a Christian or of no faith, or a Druze or maybe even a Muslim!!! This is news to me, I do not think one has EVER had to be a Jew halakhically, or even be a part-Jew, or a non-Christian, to quite openly serve in the IDF...and yes, I understand that might lead to one's being able to become an Israeli citizen, I suppose, if Israel laws were like those of many other countries, but why is this so horrid and wrong?

I would think anyone who would do that would be welcomed with open arms, how better could one demonstrate one's affinity with that country, more affinity than many a Jew in the USA would have...

[crystalk]

I believe there are some 16 million Jews halakhically, in the world...some 5.5 million each in USA and Israel, with another 2 million each in eastern and western Europe incl FSU...and a million elsewhere, especially Australia, Latin America, until recently South Africa, etc...

[widowithfoursons]

The Apostle Paul was a Jew.

[week 71]

I believe there are some 16 million Jews halakhically

My Hebrew is extremely rough. Could you define halakhically for me.

[Thinkin' Gal]

What about Jewish New Agers, Jewish agnostics, or Jewish atheists?

aliyah

When does one stop being a Jew because of what they believe?

Jesus = aliyah reject.

[crystalk]

The last point on my list is, that in his final paragraph he says that, once Christians have succeeded in posing as Jews, or Jews now become Christians posing as not having done so--- that they will on that basis try to make aliyah to Israel, and thus become immigrants and live there, the better to convert still MORE Jews, who reside there.

The mind does boggle, doesn't it? That would certainly be a very major sacrifice of safety, freedom, money, and a thousand other things, to take on such a burden, a burdensome stone Jerusalem is, to all who concern themselves with it, says Zechariah.

Surely anyone who would do such a thing, ought right there to be made a Jew legally after (say) 5 years of service, ...sheesh! That makes circumcision look like NOTHING, as a proof of one's sincerity as a convert TO Judaism.

Throughout the article, I find it difficult to decide whether what he hates, is for Jews to become Christians, or for Christians to become Jews, or for Christians to stay in Israel for extended times or serve in her armed forces.

I guess he just doesn't like ANY of those things, but all of that looks just like xenophobia and bigotry to me. Christians and Jews live together at each other's elbows, and as often as not MARRY each other, feed each other's dog when they are away on vacation... We are kissing cousins, get used to it...

[onedoug]

Personally, I was never so Christian till I understood more Judaism.

[onedoug]

Halakha is the full body of Jewish law, no?

[sonserae]

Judaism is a blood-line thing. Once a Jew, always a Jew. Someone can't become Caucasian if they were born black...unless you are Michael Jackson of course. A Messianic Jew is actually completing his Judaism by accepting Christ as His Messiah. If you end Judaism with the Old Testament, it's incomplete....for the whole purpose of completion is for the Messiah to come. Since the temple was destroyed, the Jews actually can't even practice their Judaism under the law because they are required to worship and give sacrifices in the temple...and that doesn't exist any longer. Jesus was actually the ultimate sacrifice...the unblemished lamb...By His sacrifice, our sins were redeemed once and for all forever....no more need for making regular sacrifices of animals. Since He sent the Holy Spirit, we know longer have to go "to a place" to get redemption...but He lives in our hearts. For that, we are free, not only from sin, but from having to abide by the laws and worship in a temple. The completed Jew is the one who believes that Christ is the Messiah. Christ makes Judaism make perfect sense....