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Prominent Dutch minister says his government was responsible for Srebrenica genocide
AP ^ | 3/29/2002 | MARCEL VAN DE HOEF

Posted on 03/30/2002 11:37:49 AM PST by a_Turk

AMSTERDAM, Netherlands - Fueling a widening debate, a senior cabinet minister says the Dutch government must accept responsibility for the deaths of thousands of Bosnian Muslims who were under the protection of Dutch troops in the U.N.-declared safe area of Srebrenica in 1995.

Environment Minister Jan Pronk said the government failed to give clear instructions to the commanders of the Dutch peacekeepers in the Muslim enclave in Bosnia, which was under siege by Serb forces.

The abandonment of the Muslims under their charge has raised accusations of cowardice and is widely considered a low point in Dutch military history.

Pronk said the failure was the government's, not the military's. "I won't say the soldiers failed. They operated on the basis of instructions given by us," he said in a television interview Thursday.

Pronk's remarks followed publication of a 128-page report by the respected Interchurch Peace Council, which blamed former Defense Minister Joris Voorhoeve for giving priority to the safety of the Dutch troops rather than to those they were supposed to defend in the besieged enclave.

An estimated 8,000 Muslims were slaughtered in the Srebrenica area in one week of July 1995. The peace council said the Dutch could have prevented the massacre, and called for an independent inquiry to hold Dutch politicians accountable for the fiasco.

In two weeks, the state-funded Netherlands Institute for War Documentation will publish the results of a five-year investigation by a team of more than a dozen historians who examined the Srebrenica affair. The exhaustive study will run 5,000 pages.

Pronk is a veteran member of the Labor Party of Prime Minister Wim Kok, and is known for his outspoken views. Last year, he nearly had to resign after he condemned the bombardment of Afghanistan (news - web sites), but he withdrew his criticism.

In the interview, Pronk said the Dutch commander in Bosnia should have been instructed to defend the Muslims who had fled to the U.N. compound for shelter from a Serb onslaught during the violent breakup of Yugoslavia.

Instead, the Dutch troops allowed Bosnian Serb General Radko Mladic to evacuate the Muslims, accepting his assurances they would be escorted to safety. Mladic segregated the men from their families, and most of the men were later massacred.

Kok, who also was prime minister at the time of Srebrenica, declined to comment on Pronk's remarks or on the peace council's report, saying he was awaiting the official report by the war documentation institute due on April 10.

The peace council said it based its findings on interviews and unpublished documents, including confidential minutes from ministerial meetings. Kok said he wanted to know how those minutes were leaked.

A 1999 report by the United Nations (news - web sites) largely absolved the Dutch battalion, saying the 150 soldiers were outnumbered and outgunned. It held the Bosnian Serbs primarily responsible, along with then-Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic (news - web sites), now on trial at a U.N. war crimes tribunal in The Hague (news - web sites).


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Front Page News
KEYWORDS: balkans; bosnia; campaignfinance; dutch; serbia; un; yugoslavia
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To: a_Turk
I wonder when the Belgian war crimes tribunal will issue arrest warrants for the Dutch politicians and generals--they are accused of doing no less than what Ariel Sharon is accused of.
41 posted on 03/31/2002 3:41:14 AM PST by xm177e2
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Comment #42 Removed by Moderator

To: TopQuark
the attack was a tragic mistake;...

And it kept being "a mistake" for five hours, and multiple waves of attack? Give me a ****ing break, man.

You accuse others of "ascribing to Jews every bad thing they can think of." I suggest that YOU will give Israel every conceivable break no matter WHAT they do. It is YOUR prejudice that is evident, not ours.

I am able to distinguish between JEWS--adherents of a particular religion--and ISRAEL, a secular state, a government like any other.

The attack on the Liberty wasn't made for religious purposes--"The Jews" were NOT out to get "American Christians" or whatever--but for POLITICAL purposes. The Israelis did not want the U.S. to know what they were up to--and some Israeli government officials may have even believed the U.S. was prepared to support Egypt.

So there is no reason to drag "anti-Semitism" (typically your only argument when you can't refute FACTS) into the debate.

As for the "investigations," they were bogus. LBJ--a man not known to be particularly worried about losing a few American lives for a political cause--decided that Israel would make a good hedge bet in the middle east against the growing Soviet influence among Arab states like Egypt and Syria, and so he went along with the charade.

The men who were there saw it quite differently, however.

43 posted on 03/31/2002 6:16:04 AM PST by Illbay
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To: Illbay
The men who were there saw it quite differently, however. And you were one of them?

I tried once more to involve you in a discussion, but your miond is closed like a door of an abandoned house.

I have said much more that issues relaetd to Jews and Israel. My main point was not related to Jews or Israel, but to the founding principles of this country.

You have not addressed it even with a word. I guess, this is waht your upbringing dictates: it's not the content of what is said, but the affiliations of the person who speaks.

Your position is at odds with the founding principles of this country, and you chose not deny that. That is a positive step.

As I said earlier, that was my last attempt, and I shall not write to you again. You will have to continue simmering in your narrowmindedness and hatred without me.

44 posted on 03/31/2002 6:48:12 AM PST by TopQuark
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To: Banat
8,000? Funny. I read about "6,000 killed men and boys" just the other day. It well may be that my source was not accurate or I, who does not follow this very closely, misquoted it, in which case please accept my apologies.

I do not find this to be funny at all, however.

45 posted on 03/31/2002 6:50:03 AM PST by TopQuark
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To: Spar
Your post is very helpful, thank you.

Was it a massacre? yes. Was it pre-planned? no. That is exactly how I percieved this to be without being there myself.

Under some circumstances, the extreme elements in a movement or an army get out of countrol. The important part is how that movement or army act afterwards: are they appalled and try to punish the perpetrators, or they find excuses and cover it up. If the latter course is taken, then, unfotunately, the bad deed rubd off on the whole nation.

Perhaps, the army in this case could have done more to disassociate itself from the atrocity. Since it appears it had not done so, now the accusations level at it and the nation are numerous, not always fair, and quite possibly egagerated. But theirs was the initiative in the first place.

46 posted on 03/31/2002 6:58:50 AM PST by TopQuark
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To: joan
How do you explain the fact that the names of 3,010 of those reported missing ended up on the OSCE election lists?

Maybe the same reason dead people, people not living there, or people in prison voted for Gore in Florida? 8)

47 posted on 03/31/2002 7:20:00 AM PST by zandtar
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To: TopQuark, vooch
Faced with a Jihad backed by NATO (that means your tax money and mine backed this Jihad - even loaned the Jihad the best air force on earth), I doubt the Serbs top concern was to try to punish the perpetrators.
48 posted on 03/31/2002 9:22:52 AM PST by Spar
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To: Spar
Yeah, it would be interesting for the defenders of Nasir Oric on this forum to demand the same of our men and women in Op Anaconda......hey before firing on islamic fighters fleeing into the hills and forests under the cover of darkness, please refrain from shooting too many.....

Spar, BTW your stats are way off, the 28th suffered less than 2,000 KIA during the liberation of Srebrenica. ( less than 20% casulties) As most observers who have examined the operation have concluded, the RSA failed to annhilate the 28th BiH division.

49 posted on 03/31/2002 1:39:51 PM PST by vooch
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To: TopQuark
the extreme elements in a movement or an army get out of countrol. The important part is how that movement or army act afterwards:When faced under ardious conditions of combat, parlay that into seeing the viciousness in the dead corpses of Serbian civilians, there will be that tendancy to explode in range.
Did not the US Army SF beat and point blank kill unarmed civilians or suspected Al-Q members? Should the IDF be targeted for WarCrimes by the Hague, or are they looking the other way? BTW, Joe Liebermans justification on the Palestine civilian killings by the IDF is and was disgusting.

Perhaps, the army in this case could have done more to disassociate itself from the atrocity. Since it appears it had not done so, now the accusations level at it and the nation are numerous, not always fair, and quite possibly egagerated. But theirs was the initiative in the first place.
Serbs have never been accredited with being a PR genius. However, what Spar posted regarding Karadzich screaming at General Mladich exposes some, only some of how even Mladich may have lost control of some of the White Eagles and his own troops to the shock and anger of the atrocities done by the BH Oric troops.

50 posted on 03/31/2002 2:05:38 PM PST by SKS Snajperi
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To: vooch
28th BiH suffered more casualties from their own in-fighting than from the Serb Military during that melee...Sorry, but the truth...
51 posted on 03/31/2002 2:07:40 PM PST by SKS Snajperi
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To: Spar
As long as I am in Srebrenica," he said, "it will never be Serb. We will protect the hearths of our people. We will never be Palestinians." He was not in Sreb. very long when the Serb units moved forward. He was ordered out by Alija, to leave Sreb.
52 posted on 03/31/2002 6:25:05 PM PST by SKS Snajperi
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To: SKS Snajperi
It is certainly possible that the 28th Bih div. lost more than a few dozen from the infighting when they were 'deciding' whether to ditch their entrenched positions or run away as fast as they could.

The outnumbered & thinly stretched RSA may have failed miserably in their attempt to annhilate the 28th. But one can safely doubt that the RSA failed as much as you suggest. The RSA may have been poorly deployed in the aftermath of the destruction of Nasir Oric's HQ, but they didn't 100% fail.

The UN forensic experts testified that they found at least 600 KIA of the 28th. It is unlikely that intercine fighting among the 28th killed more than that.

53 posted on 04/01/2002 3:20:22 AM PST by vooch
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To: a_Turk
You must also know that the Dutch government is hiding a lot of aother things. During the conflict, an F-16 made a photo-flight over. But the photos that were taken 'were not developed correctly'! Directly experts said this could never happen and that it was impossible for this to happen. It is another cover up, so maybe some more stuff will come out in the future.
54 posted on 04/01/2002 4:13:20 AM PST by knighthawk
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To: TopQuark
They may have done well historically, but they are apparently not up to prior performance here.

We have also had problems of our own. However, this last action seemed like an act of true stupidy, more in keeping with the traditions of America's beaurocracies than its military establishments. Recent episode of Elian Gonzales a perfect example.

55 posted on 04/01/2002 5:24:11 AM PST by ZULU
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To: vooch
It is certainly possible that the 28th Bih div. lost more than a few dozen from the infighting when they were 'deciding' whether to ditch their entrenched positions or run away as fast as they could.the 28th did lose more than a few, but due to their infighting, they also lost more to the Serbs unnecassarily. It was a well-planned operation. Much planning went on at HP during the Carter Cease-Fire lull.

The outnumbered & thinly stretched RSA may have failed miserably in their attempt to annhilate the 28th. But one can safely doubt that the RSA failed as much as you suggest. The RSA may have been poorly deployed in the aftermath of the destruction of Nasir Oric's HQ, but they didn't 100% fail. The OpOrder was not to annihilate the 28th, only to retake Srebrenica and render the unit ineffective/inoperable for a while. Mladic wanted to get the war done with before next winter, he did not want to keep fighting this war. He was getting tired of the civil war, so he ordered the "the militarized safe havens" to be demilitarized in accordance to UN Safe Haven order.

The UN forensic experts testified that they found at least 600 KIA of the 28th. It is unlikely that intercine fighting among the 28th killed more than that.true, it would be very difficult to differintiate between a "Muslim" AK round or a "Serb" AK round. You can only speculate and never know if you are correct upon those testimonies. Of course, we know the crediblity of the UN/NATO experts have been, with the 8,000- 6,000- 1000 bodies....

56 posted on 04/01/2002 5:52:27 AM PST by SKS Snajperi
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To: a_Turk
Let's see, uh, duh, election fraud? Too stupid for you to fathom? It's hard to be as smart as you afterall..

Yes, So-Smart, indeed election fraud would be the case if they have identified these very people on the list as those among the dead. But have they? Do you know - does anyone know?

Given that 3,010 is almost 40% of the total of "missing", and assuming they were all killed, then about every other or every third body found would in probability be identified as one of them. Yet I haven't heard that this is the case - of course access to comprehensive and specific data on the findings is seemingly unavailable to the public.

If they HAVEN'T identified and matched any of these men, and given that they are thousands bodies short in the claimed number of "missing and presumed dead" - 8,000, and given that the odds of not finding people who make up a substantial part of the total after hundreds have been identified would become infinitesimally small, odds are much greater that these people are alive (or were alive after 1995) and likely living in Bosnia or other countries at this point.

57 posted on 04/01/2002 6:36:25 AM PST by joan
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To: a_Turk

Apparently, euthanasia is illegal in Bosnia, and that is what the Dutch minister is bemoaning.

58 posted on 04/01/2002 6:39:19 AM PST by Cultural Jihad
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To: a_Turk
This would not be posted if it were not for Oric's and his entourage of Islam fanatics violating and negating the term Safe Haven. What do you make of his boasting in the beheadings of local innocent Serb civilians who had no part of the war?

Would you be willing to play by the rules of war or would you use your strength to gain the advantage to win?

There were deaths, but not in the making of how the media and certain governments orchestraded the fight. There were three mass graves, one for civilians and the other two were of Serb and Muslim military deaths.

Where is the boot Tragically Single, or has he run already? Too bad he was not there during the 93-95 time frame, otherwise, he would have witnessed the truth.

59 posted on 04/01/2002 10:33:41 AM PST by SKS Snajperi
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To: SKS Snajperi
The operation to demiltarize the Safe Zones may have been well planned, but the after efforts were a utter failure. You are correct if you believe that infighting and poor leadership in the 28th BiH caused them to collapse and lose more KIA then they might of otherwise had.

No matter how well planned, Gen M. never suspected that a few companies of RSA infantry could have rendered a full entrenched division into a mob of fleeing fighters. Gen. M. only wished to demilitarize the zone by making it impossible for the execution squads of the 28th BiH to operate.

60 posted on 04/01/2002 4:44:33 PM PST by vooch
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