Posted on 03/25/2002 7:44:16 AM PST by US admirer
Spong warns not to take Bible too literally
Controversial religious figure John Shelby Spong took the pulpit at Dilworth United Methodist Sunday and urged more than 600 worshippers not to believe everything they read in the Bible.
The retired Episcopal bishop, who was born and raised in Dilworth, is best known for questioning Christian tenets such as Jesus' virgin birth and his physical resurrection. Spong's Palm Sunday sermon focused on challenging those who believe the Bible is the literal word of God.
"The book we see as the book of life has for years been used as a weapon of oppression, and it's still being used to justify hatred and oppression," Spong said... (see URL for full article)
Thank you for the question, although I wish to state up front that I am not the be-all end-all when it comes to all things Christian. I also want to make it clear that I am not an expert on Catholicism, so I can only express my views, and not church dogma.
When sin entered the world, man had a choice to make. God was the ruler of this world as long as man chose to follow His will. When man partook of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, he made a symbolic choice of Satan as his new leader. It was a sin to partake of that tree. The wages of sin were death.
God could have allowed man to be forever condemned to the wages of his sin. But God sought to redeem man. Only through the ultimate sacrifice could man's soul be purchased back from Satan. From the moment man/woman partook of the apple, Satan's law ruled this world. At the Cross, Jesus sacrificed His life to purchase our souls back.
The wages of sin was death. To keep man from having to die for all of eternity, Jesus died a perfect sacrifice for our imperfect lives. At that moment man again had a choice. He no longer had to face an eternal death. If he would accept God's leadership and avoid the forbidden fruit (sin), he could be assured of eternal life.
Jesus immaculate conception was important. It was important that we realize the Son of God came down to redeem us. Although He was born as a man, it was a seminal event. He was not just any man. Our fate did hang in the balance. Jesus had to face the very same temptations we do. Through all of it He prevailed. We were redeemed.
A part of the Holy Trinity died on that cross. A Being with the power to command the forces of nature, walk on water and raise men from the dead, submitted Himself to the ultimate humility at the cross. He died when He could have killed, by any means imaginable, those who ordered or facilitated His death.
Was it important that Jesus was an immaculate conception? Yes. Is it important that Satan demising the sacrifice, and it's significance? Yes. Satan will do anything in his power to discount what it was that Jesus did for us. His ability to confuse and destroy is all that he has left. And even that is only temporary now. Out of all the universe and other worlds, we were the only one's to give Satan a home. We were the only ones to chose his rule over God's. That rule has ended. But it's effects are still being felt.
He has no power over us as long as we accept Christ's perfect death as an atonement for our sins. But we must accept it. It cannot be forced on us. Redemption requires acceptance and a changed life on our part. God can NOT force salvation on us any more than he could force it on Adam and Eve. They had a choice. We have the SAME choice. Will we be perfect? No. Must we try? Yes. Will we earn our salvation? No. But we will have to try to live as God would have us live. He has paid the price for our sin, but he is not going to allow us to do everything bad that we can imagine, then save us to live that life in heaven. We should be conducting ourselves on this earth as if we were already in heaven. Repentance is necessary before salvation can be claimed. Adam and Eve made a grave mistake, but they were repentant. I have no doubt they tried to live good lives after their sin.
You refereed to the Catholic church as being the entity that placed significance on the immaculate conception of Christ. I believe you are referring to the deification of Mary, Jesus mother. My religion teaches that Mary was a good woman honored of God. It does not attribute God-like status to Mary, or impart a holy position for her. She was the woman honored above all others in that she carried the baby Jesus to term, delivered Him and raised Him. I believe that is all.
Obviously I respect Mary for her role. God obviously thought very highly of her. But if you'll take note, Jesus rebuked Mary at times saying He must be about His Father's business. If Mary had truly been deified, I don't think that would have been necessary.
God the Father, Jesus His Son and the Holy Spirit are one. They are joined. Things changed when Jesus took the form of a man. I am convinced that Jesus was forever changed, a constant reminder of Sin throughout the ages. His heavenly body was left behind. His human body took it's place.
Do I have all the answers? No. Am I absolutely sure what I have said here is right? No. It's about the best I can do until I get to ask the pointed questions from the only person who can explain it all to us. Realizing our limited concepts regarding life, death and one's soul, it's going to be hard for us to take it all in even when He explains it.
There, my neck is out. Whack away fellow Freepers. Grin.
I must confess that the notion of not taking everything in the bible literally, seems to me to be a better excuse, than concocting a scenario where sin was temporarily not a sin, whenever a literalist requires an “out” when confronted with logical incongruity in the bible.
But anyways I was just being playful.
Okaaaay, whatever you say, Freetus. When the King returns, He'll know exactly what you meant.
There's no claim that they did. The claim is that their children married each other; brother-sister incest, not father-daughter incest.
The question then becomes whether brother-sister incest (within the context of marriage, obviously) is prohibited by natural law. (Since no law against it had been revealed at the time, only natural law could have applied.) It's not at all clear that it is prohibited.
If you want this in simpler terms, there are some thing that are wrong because they're just wrong. There are other things that we know to be wrong because God has said that they're wrong. It's not obvious that brother-sister incest isn't in the second category.
Seriously, they consider themselves Catholics of the Anglican Communion ( on a good day ); and MOST reject Spong as a heretic.
What do you mean by "natural law"? Laws of physics I understand. Natural law against incest leaves me puzzled. What was the basis for / origin of, this “natural law”. Also, are you implying that marriage was around at the time of Adam? If so, could you give me a reference?
The Bible teaches that Mary was "full of grace" (the literal meaning of the angel's greeting to her) and she herself, under inspiration, said "all generations to come shall call me blessed".
That's a bit more than just a "good woman honored of God". Sarah was a "good woman honored of God," but nobody ever said anything like that about her.
She's not a goddess, she's a redeemed and glorified human being. She's "deified" in the sense that all the glorified are "deified": they are made partakers of the divine nature, see 2 Pt 1:4. Religions which teach more than that are idolatrous; religions which teach less than that contradict Scripture.
Read some Aquinas. Natural law is the moral order proper to human nature; the rights and wrongs that human beings, at least unfallen ones, would know instinctively.
Also, are you implying that marriage was around at the time of Adam? If so, could you give me a reference?
The book of Genesis refers directly to Eve as Adam's "wife". There's also a Hebrew apocryphal book (Book of Jubilees, I think?) which names all of Adam & Eve's sons and their sisters whom they took as wives.
For more explanation, see the Letter to the Romans and be sure to read the first three chapters VERY CAREFULLY.
Now that I have answered your question, can you answer one of mine?
I am having a problem fishing lately; What is the proper speed for me to go trolling?
Just because you (and I) don't always turn our attentions towards religion, it deosn't mean that God hasn't been working in our lives.
God is life. When He withdraws from you there is only one outcome.
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