Klamath Basin WSJ Editorial ---- "Fish Tales"

Wall St. Journal ^ | February 27, 2002 | Editorial

[The Raven]

Here's the latest addition to the endangered species list: scientists.

Just ask the farmers of the Oregon-California Klamath Basin. The independent National Academy of Sciences has released an explosive report saying the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service and the National Marine Fisheries Service had "no sound scientific basis" for cutting off water to them last year on behalf of "endangered" sucker fish.

[The Raven]

>>>The Fish & Wildlife action has cost the Klamath Basin 2,000 jobs and $134 million

And where are they going? They don't know.

[backhoe]

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[RJCogburn]

Good post.

One can hope that Norton will be more interested in making things right than some of the "tone-changers" now in power.

She was a Libertarian prior to becoming a Repub....does she still have the groundings of "the Party of principle"?

[knarf]

We're approaching another spring ... how do things look for this year?

[meenie]

Klamath Basin and the damage created there by an out-of-control government probably equals or surpasses anything any government has done to its own citizens in recent history. It compares in many respects to Mugabe and the Zimbabwe affair. Most of the dictatorships throughout history have had the intelligence to preserve their own assets. These are two examples when this was even forgotten.

[EverOnward]

Looks to me like action should be taken against every agency involved and all banks that foreclosed knowing full well the property owners were victims of illegal acts of government.

Agreed!

[tomakaze]

RE:She was a Libertarian prior to becoming a Repub....does she still have the groundings of "the Party of principle"?

Hell no. Look at her actions (and her bosses for that matter). Rural cleansing continues.

[spald]

"In light of the NAS report, Ms. Norton should require that the Fish & Wildlife Service put all of its Endangered Species reports -- past and present -- through peer review."

This is such a sound suggestion. Peer review exposes the frauds and political activists.

Thank you for posting this article.

[zog]

--raven, not addressed to you, just general commentary here, thanks for the article

--this is true but it only goes half way and is continuing the big fake out and disconnect, IMO. Focusing on the 'scientific" aspects of the ESA does nothing to address the fundamental constitutional issue of "is the ESA "lawful" as it authorises governmental takings without any payments, good science or bad science."

Just saying 'bad science" lead to the ruling is correct but actually irrelevant, the entire basis of the ruling is ILLEGAL 'bad law". Now all they got to do is cross their t's and dot their i's better, write even more convulted law 'code' that has nothing to do with the english language or the original intent, wording, meaning,and definitions of the bill of born with rights, and the government can still steal your stuff for any reason they feel like coming up with without paying you for it. Point a gun at your head and tell you to lay back, spread your legs and like it-or else.

Until that part is addressed, people will accept this bone toss same as they always accept bone tosses and still be victims and brag about their continued victimhood and how they are "winning". It's like a woman bragging about getting raped daily and pointing oput how nice it is she's not getting her head bashed in at the same time, it really is like that in a way. It's another one of their misdirection ploys. Granted, it addresses an actual *part* of the whole mess, I will not dispute that and it's part of trying to get the mess solved, but it falls short of the true nature of this particular governmental crime.

Here's just a quickee refresher course of what this is really about if you don't artificially stop looking for reasons at a point you are comfortable with. If 'anyone you" want's to stop looking at some level, then skip this next part. Stay at the level you are most comfortable at and want to argue at, this is okay really, there's work to be done at that level, too, but don't hinder the people who are willing to look at the ultimate levels, or go out of your way to deny that there are higher levels than this, or tell them to "not look there".:

http://memory.loc.gov/const/bor.html

Amendment V No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

It just doesn't get any clearer than that.

In my opinion, this "science" is bad, but is just a symptom of the over all problem, it's not the actual important problem, this born with rights violation by the government is the important problem. so what if you after years of expensive fighting you "win" on one endangered species action one place because they got bad science, and the next ten illegal cases go through because the goons learn to fabricate better reports? What have we really 'gained' then except more efficient and smarter crooks in charge? And not only this convulted mess of the ESA, it's a boatload of other issues.

Anyone's mileage may vary on that one, it matters not, government is bigger than you or me, it has zero compunction of immediately going into overdrive and using any amount of resources or violence to get it's bullying way now, and it controls the people now, not vice versa like it should be. That is reality. Until this is really grabbed on to by most people, they will continue with this sort of deal, they got the numbers, personnel, and color of law ultra violence authority on their side for anything they want to do-Anything.Anything. Anything. Get an apparent 'win" in one case, all it takes is 15 minutes on free republic surfing to see a "loss" on 10 other cases. Do the math.

[tang-soo]

The following was a retort to my sending out this thread to some co workers. I know the basics of this story, but not a whole lot of details. I would appreciate it if some could take a shot at a reply to this comment. For one thing, I'm not sure what he means by the contempt charges against Norton. Thanks for your help in advance.

I just knew somehow if would be all Clinton's fault. Geez, Gale Norton to the rescue. Yeah, that will fix things, sure it will. Of course, she'll have trouble getting the job down if she lands her butt in jail over those contempt of court charges.

In 1908, when the refuge was established, it was 350,000 acres of lakes and wetlands. Now it is down to 190,000 acres with 3/4 being used for agriculture. Over 80% of pacific flyaway birds use it, it is the only spot in the lower 48 where large numbers of bald eagles can be seen.

I guess there probably isn't any oil there, or W's buddies would already be drilling for it.

All in all, I think it sounds like probably a nice place to try to preserve.

[Free the USA]

Bump List

[SuperLuminal]

Of course, anything with the name "sucker" had to be declared endangered during the klintoon administration.

[hubel458]

Tang-soo; Here is a little help for you. Norton and the Interior Dept are being sued by some Indian groups, because of mishandling and corruption of Indian funds that the Dept collected on royalties; on land they hold in trust for he tribes. A judge threatened contempt if her and the help couldn't get it straightened out. This is a problem that has went on for over a hundred years and cheated the Indians out of billions. Interior has always been a haven for crooks and thieves and now it is full of greenie scientific and lawyer types of crooks and thieves.Hence the problems at Klamath. I will post the rest of the the Klamath info for you to send to your greenie co-workers, on down the thread..Ed Hubel.

[hubel458]

Tang-soo;The original basin was swamps in winter and spring, and most of it dried up in the summer and fall.Upper Klamath Lake was so foul in summer the horses wouldn't drink from it.The farm irrigation system made 70 sg miles of permanent open water for the birds, in their reservoirs. Plus Upper Klamath lake has 133 sg miles that is relatively stable now. Fish and wildlife drained out 6 sq miles of open water for bird habitat two years ago and let it go to weeds when there was plenty of water.And when the water was shut off to the farms it also shut of the supply to the bird refuges.The farms and refuges use less than 20% of the water from Klamath Lake the rest being for the fish and the river.All the problems there are caused by greens in and out of gov. Their nutcase ideas have harmed the birds, 400 other refuge and farm species, the farmers, the salmon with to much warm water down river, the suckers with the higher summer water levels that get baby suckers into the new wetlands the greenies built where they get eaten by fathead minnows, and farms ability to feed wildlfe.(birds- deer- other small game). It is just a land grab by the greens by driving out the farmers, who are the true conservationists.And tell your green co-workers as for the oil drilling it might be done in ANWR I hope. That will increase the reindeer numbers like it did on north slope. And we are trying to get Norton to put all greenies in Interior up there to count reindeer turds before and after, to see how much they increased because of the drilling. Your green co-workers could join them......... Ed Hubel.

[zog]

--I'm not sure what you are asking me. The technical details of the creation of the irrigation system are just a matter of historical data. A desert with a marshland and snowfed lake, that was tapped into, dams built to store more water,irrigation canals built, with the help, cooperation and lead of the states and federal government. They encouraged people to move there several generations ago and homestead. This happened. many of them were returning world war two veterqans, several of them still there and farming, or their kids or grandkids are (trying to anyway). The area turned into an incredible food basket, plus it actually increased food for wild animals, plus because of the dams and storing the water, they get a bonus of hydroelectric power.Clean and green.. Everyone was a winner until this ESA thing came along. The refuge itself has the largest concentration of bald eagles in the lower 48, and etc. it fed 50 zillion ducks a year, etc. it all was "working" perfectly ok before, even in drought years.

Next enter the endangered species act, which was originally intended for protecting species like the whooping crane-down to like a dozen or something when they became protected. Ok, swell, anyone can see that. The law itself had a sunset date, and that has been passed, it no longer even is a law, they just keep funding it as a wiggle room option. The government now applies this non law/law to such an extent that millions of acres can get declared off limits to human use to protect anything, I even heard of a case in california where they were protecting some fly! They take private property. that's it. They flat out steal it at gunpoint, standing behind some robed wonder, but those badges and guns and threats of force are directly implied. There is no doubt you can't say "no" except at their physical peril.

The 'science' behind it is mostly a scam, the need to protect 99.99% of these various species is dubious at best, and they never recompensate anyone for their stolen property. The lake level last year was slap full, but they still said it was too low, but for some reason it wasn't so low that zillions of gallons a second didn't stop going through a hydroelectric turbine. By stopping the irrigation warer to protect 500,000 estimated swuckers-proving they aren't endangered-they stopped the flow of water to the wildlife refuige, endangering all the plants and animals there, endangered or not. Farmers even took private well water and sent some to the refuge, and the small amount they were "allowed" to use last fall. By disallowing the farmers their water, in ther normal amounts throughtout the growing season, they couldn't farm,they went broke. The government did not pay them according to the fifth amendment. it is roughly 1/3 of a billion dollars a year taken out of a small local economy, let alone the 100% income stolen per farm family. it's virtually impossible to actually farm there without the water. this would be like the government telling a carpenter 'sure, you can still builed house, but we are taking your hammers and saws away by law". it's pure-d nutzo, an obvious scam and an outright theft.

Yes, the government can lawfully after a legal proceeding 'take" your property for the "public good", but they must pay you fairly for it. It's black and white, I posted the amendment. The federal government even had the cheek to MAKE the farmers pay their normal yearly water "maintenance" fees, in some cases thousands of dolars per farm, for water they were not getting, and forcing them to come up with money they just plain don't got..

This is pure dictatorship zimbabwe action, no different, and it happened under bush, although this "law" has been screwing people over throughout several administrations now. It doesn't matter if the democrips or the republibloods are in power on this issue, same with both of them so far.

That's a simplistic overview, but fairly accurate. The details include whopper international companies who fund environmental organizations at the same time they are bribing lobbying both parties and various politicians, indian tribes and treaties promising them the water, the government funding lawsuits against itself, wsalmon fishermen on the coast, salmon themselves so numerous they are killed by the state, but still called endangered, and so much weird crap ya wouldn't believe it. it's a freeking mess de farce. The total sums involved are staggering, the amount of actual real estate-the oldest form of real "wealth" on the planet, predating even gold, is staggering, and the political power and agenda involved with rural cleansing-getting people moved and herded into the cities where their food and water can be controlled-is obvious. It goes hand in hand with every other globalist elite scams to enslave the bulk of the population, to "own" all the real wealth, to control where you live and how you live, basically to make you a serf.

Hope that helps.

[hubel458]

Headgates opening on Friday.It is supposed to be official now. The gates open Fri 29th and Sen Smith, Norton and Vennamen are to be their Fri AM. Ed Hubel.

[zog]

--GREAT NEWS! SERIOUS BUMP UP!