A Question for Creationists

February 5th, 2002 | Sabertooth

[Sabertooth]

A Question for Creationists

Genesis 1:

1   In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2   And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3    And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4   And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5   And God called the light Day , and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

6   And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7   And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which [were] under the firmament from the waters which [were] above the firmament: and it was so.
8   And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9   And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry [land] appear: and it was so.
10   And God called the dry [land] Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that [it was] good.
11   And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, [and] the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed [is] in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12   And the earth brought forth grass, [and] herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed [was] in itself, after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.
13   And the evening and the morning were the third day.

14   And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15   And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16   And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day , and the lesser light to rule the night: [he made] the stars also.
17   And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18   And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that [it was] good.
19   And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

20   And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl [that] may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
21   And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.
22   And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
23   And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

24   And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25   And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.

26   And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27    So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28    And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29    And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which [is] upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which [is] the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30    And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein [there is] life, [I have given] every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31    And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was] very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

So there we have it, right? God created the heavens and the Earth and every living thing, including man, in six days. Six, 24-hour days.

And then…

Genesis 2:

1   Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2   And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3   And God blessed the seventh day , and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Here at the begininning of Genesis 2, we see the seventh day. Now we have seven twenty-four hour days.

So far, so good?

And then the next few lines of Genesis 2…

4   These [are] the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
5   And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and [there was] not a man to till the ground.
6   But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

These verses are a recapitulation of the Genesis 1 account of creation, when God created the heavens and the earth. They further explain the antediluvian conditions on that day, before there was ever rain, when a mist would rise up from the ground and…

Wait.

The heavens were created on the second day, but there was no ground until God separated the waters from the earth on the third day of Creation. Look again at Genesis 1 : 6-10.

Genesis 1:

6   And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7   And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which [were] under the firmament from the waters which [were] above the firmament: and it was so.
8   And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9   And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry [land] appear: and it was so.
9   And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry [land] appear: and it was so.
10   And God called the dry [land] Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that [it was] good.

How can the heavens be created on the same day there was a mist rising from the ground in Genesis 2, when these things occurred on different days in Genesis 1?

The word "day" in Genesis 1 and 2 is translated from the Hebrew "yom." It's the same word in all of the places I've highlighted in red. In fact, about 99% of the time the word "day" is found in the Old Testament, the original Hebrew is "yom."

If the word "day" in the Genesis 1 is a normal 24-hour day, rather than an allegorical phrasing for a much longer period of time (as seen elsewhere in the Bible, Ps. 90:4 and 2 Peter 3: 8 being good examples), and the word "day" in Genesis 2:4 is also a 24 hour day, we appear to have a contradiction between Genesis 1 and 2. The only way Genesis 2:4 can be reconciled is if "day" refers to a period of longer than 24 hours.

But if the word "day" is figurative in Genesis 2:4, then why not in Genesis 1?

Why does the word "day" in Genesis 1 have to mean a literal 24-hour period?

[D-fendr]

Yes, and a cycle of lightness/darkness somewhere not necessarily 24 hours could even be… billions of hours, or years…

The literal 7 twenty-four hour days is a firm point in much of creationism science. I think it would have to find some other reasoning for this position.

[Diddle E. Squat]

No, I am not calling God a liar, I am recognizing that he can speak any way he wants, and in a myriad of styles, sometimes literal, sometimes figurative. Jesus spoke parables, are you calling him a liar? The Bible is full of symbolic language, poetry, lyrical imagery. I'm not even saying it wasn't a 24-hour day, but since symbolism is clearly used elsewhere in the Bible, it certainly is not out of the realm of possibility that it may be employed here too. He could have done it all in a snap of a finger, but in his much faster mind, 6 days could have fit into one of our seconds. Could go either way, or exactly 6 days. But more importantly, 7 days is a week, a complete unit. So in breaking down creation into days, God could convey to us that it was a process. Maybe in explaining a bit of the process God was conveying the message that he cares for us, and recognizing our curiousity he gives some insight and explanation. He could have just said, "Hey, I snapped my fingers, and it was." But how much more interesting is it that he gave a more in-depth telling of the story for us to fascinate upon, picturing our father mightily creating out of nothing these elements like sea and sky that are so massive and firm to us. Just like a dad telling his kids a story at bedtime of what he did that day, vividly explained in images the children can understand, the children hanging on every word.

If it is so important that God spoke literally in the creation account, than why does he use symbolism elsewhere in the Bible? How is it doubting in any way to recognize that the creation story may be actually allegorical rather than literal? Why would God feel a need to give us a precise historical account of creation? Wasn't he upset when men tried to gain so much knowledge in an attempt to approach him that he confused us at the Tower of Babel? So if a literal account was given, would not that more likely encourage man to attempt to acquire as much knowledge as God? Thus given the fact that God clearly at times takes a Rumsfeld-esque "need to know basis" for what he reveals, I think the logical conclusion is that the creation account is given from God's mystery side, rather than as historical fact.

Would be an interestng study to compare how often God reveal information about himself in a literal factual sense, versus in symbolic and mysterious language. I would bet the latter prevails. However when particular men are discussed in the Bible, it is usually more straightforward. Same for commands and guidance for lifestyle and earthly issues.

[Diddle E. Squat]

Perhaps the literal 24-hours is the "missing link" weakness in the creation science argument. Which makes sense because "creation science" is a man-made tool, and thus subject to error.

To be clear, the creation account itself is God-given, from the Bible. The attempts to explain it in a scientific form, however, is a human attempt.

[irishtenor]

Because God bracketed them with the phrase "Morning and Evening", thus establishing the time frame.

[monkeyshine]

I went to askmoses.com, and the Rabbi told me that the verse in Gen 2:4 refers to the potential, that in potential all (everything!) was created in the first day.

He also said that, as for the seed question, that all was created by His Word, and that the chicken indeed came before the egg as far as the plants go! :-)

[woollyone]

Before I answer the question you have posed, please explain your intent in asking it. By this I mean...
Are you convinced in your own mind that your day/age interpretation is the correct one and therefore you are merely asking further questions to "...to pose a challenge to the literalists" (as you have said) for the simple sake of rhetorical debate, or..
...are you asking because you really are not certain that your own understanding of the passages is the correct one and you are genuinely seeking to understand the truth?

I ask this because you seem to have a certain propensity for crevo threads, and the crevo threads usually end up breaking down to much more about magifiying division in the body of Christ and exploiting this division, alienating those who are genuinely seeking the Truth about the Lord, and puffing up the pride of various people. None of these results is either a good Christian witness, a loving or characteristically godly manner of sharing, or offering the hope of redemption that the Lord offers to those who seek Him.

My intent in asking this is to check the motives for both the question aksed and my potential reply.

Based on your answer, I'll decide if your question an honest or dishonest one and therefore if it is meritous of a respectful response. Thank you.

Peace.

[LaineyDee]

I've read somewhere....(have to research it) that in Genesis 1....the word "created" in Hebrew was a word meaning RE-created. The author speculated that the original earth was destroyed when Lucifer was cast out of heaven....hence the waters would have been here ... but the earth was without form (land) and void (barren). Interesting concept. I'll see what I can dig up on it.

[woollyone]

The scene; A classroom, where the religious studies are being taught.

Professor declares; "The days in Genesis are obviously symbolic!"

Sudent asks; "You mean, professor...that they could really mean six seconds?"

Professor replies; "Yes, that's right!"

Another student asks; "Or even six billion years professor?"

Professor; "Why yes, they could mean anything"

Another student; "What about six days?"

Professor shouts; "SIX DAYS!!!...NO!"

[Nix 2]

A few quickies here. First, the span of time in the earth's rotation has altered drastically throughout millions of years. It has had several shifts in the magnetic poles. It has changed as recently as a couple of years ago when El Nino was so powerful, that the major jetsreams it created literally slowed the rotation of the planet by about 1/10 of a second. It might not seem like much, but it affacts everything; the tides, the seasons, night and day.
2. Mists and steam rising from the earth IS water in vapor form. A hot core and a cold outer shell couldn't help but produce vapor so moving over the face of the deep would appear to be the depth of cloud cover, which is water, which the spirit also would have moved across. There is no contradiction in either of these things.
3. Chapters 1-5 all happened around the earth, not on it.
And God made the firmament, (heaven,) and divided the waters which [were] under the firmament (mists and vapors rising up from the earth,) from the waters which [were] above the firmament: (*maximum cloud cover which sunlight couldn't breach,) and it was so.
4. TIME did not begin on earth until Chapter 14.
5. These [are] the GENERATIONS of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
And began the cycle of life.

[Nix 2]

affacts=affects
my bad

[mindprism.com]

In God We Trust - and in the event of a tie, the house wins.

[The Raven]

Your question on the God of random has been around a long time. It used to be "Who pushed the first eraser"

Betrand Russell answered with another question..." Who created God?"

The answer he got was "God always was and always will be"

He then came up with another question.... "What's wrong with "The universe always was and always will be?"

[Gershom]

I think Rashi's take on 1:6 backs this up. Before 1:6, the heavens had no form. The water wasn't solidifed (submlimated?) until 1:6, when the waters above were separated from the waters below. So the waters were created as part of the heavens, which agrees with Rambam's seeing 1:1-2 as the creation of a matrix from which the rest of creation proceeded.

[RaceBannon]

OK then, we don't agree... but I'm not sure where we disagree. The waters came before the heavens

I believe it was simultaneous. When the Heavens and the Earth were created, water was created att the same time. I wish i had the link, but as I understand it:

The DIRT-PART of the Earth was created from the waters, and so was the sky we see above us.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.WATER EXISTED HERE AS A PART OF THE CREATION OF hEAVEN AND eARTH. iT DOES APPEAR THOUGH, IN LATER VERSES, THAT 'EARTH' WAS NOT A DIRT EARTH, BUT WAS ALL WATER IN SOME FORM
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.THIS IS THE FIRST MENTIONING OF THE WATERS BEING SPLIT. THE UPPER WATERS BECAME THE ATMOSPHERE, THE DAY SKY WE SEE. SOME NOW BELIEVE THIS IS WHERE ALL THE WATER CAME FROM THAT MADE UP 40 DAYS OF RAIN FOR NOAH, EXISTING INTHE ATMOSPHERE IN VAPOR FORM. ALSO, THIS VAPOR CANOPY, (JUST LIKE VENUS HAS, JUPITER, SATURN, NEPTUNE ALSO) PREVENTED ULTRAVIOLET RAYS FROM ENTERING AND DOING DAMAGE IN THE FORM OF CANCERS AND SUCH, THEREBY RESULTING IN THE LONG LIFE PERIODS THAT MEN HAD BEFORE THE FLOOD.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.HERE IS THE DRY LAND APPEARING. SOME HAVE SAID THE DIRT(EARTH) WAS CREATED FROM THE WATER. OTHERS DISAGREE AND SAY THE DIRT(EARTH) WAS JUST UNDER THE WATER, I WISH I HAD THAT LINK, WE CAN LET THE LINGUISTS HANDLE IT

[MeekOneGOP]

A Question for Creationists
Nice article, Sabertooth!
(((PING))))))
Please let me know if you want ON or OFF my ping list!. . .don't be shy.

[RaceBannon]

You keep thinking because there is some illiteration or symbology spoken of somewhere, that all other references must also be symbology or metaphor. Again, just because the verse sounds fantastic does not mean it is symbolic or metaphor.

In all these Creation accounts, it is clear in the language these are meant to be taken literally, while when God says, "In the day of.." It can mean both a literal day or an Day/Age/period, it all depends on what is being spoken of. The best bet is to take it literally unless it is aburd to do so, and also remember that if science disagrees with the literal meaning, it is probably science that is wrong.

[RaceBannon]

Would be an interestng study to compare how often God reveal information about himself in a literal factual sense, versus in symbolic and mysterious language.

Remember something else, though. God is infinite, and Spirit. We and this Earth are temporal. It is easier to refer to that which is Spiritual in metaphors and simile because the reality of Spirit we have no clue of because we cannot see or feel or understand spirit in our frame of reference. Temporal things we can see, we do not need metaphor or simile to describe dirt because we experience dirt in our world.

[CheneyChick]

I sure do remember the context. God's patience while we try to "figure" things out.... Talk about Grace.

Cheers, CC :)

[Sabertooth]

Betrand Russell answered with another question..." Who created God?" The answer he got was "God always was and always will be"

He then came up with another question.... "What's wrong with "The universe always was and always will be?"

Well, to answer Russell...

The best scientific data so far, for starters. You could get away with being a steady-state guy many, many decades ago, but talk about an endangered species. It only takes one Big Bang to bring that beast down.

Second, from a philosophical standpoint, how is it especially profound to resist the eternity of God by opting for a leap of faith for the eternity of matter?

[MEGoody]

There are some who think the 6 days of creation were 6 'earth' days. I do not. The word 'day' in the bible is used figuratively more than once to equal some unspecified period of time. Scripture states that a day to the Lord is like a thousand years. Again, this is not literal, but relates to God being eternal. So who really knows how long a creation day was? 24 hours? 24 years? 24 million years? 24 seconds? Doesn't matter. The point is, God made it all. :)