A Question for Creationists

February 5th, 2002 | Sabertooth

[Sabertooth]

A Question for Creationists

Genesis 1:

1   In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2   And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3    And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4   And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5   And God called the light Day , and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

6   And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7   And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which [were] under the firmament from the waters which [were] above the firmament: and it was so.
8   And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9   And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry [land] appear: and it was so.
10   And God called the dry [land] Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that [it was] good.
11   And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, [and] the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed [is] in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12   And the earth brought forth grass, [and] herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed [was] in itself, after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.
13   And the evening and the morning were the third day.

14   And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15   And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16   And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day , and the lesser light to rule the night: [he made] the stars also.
17   And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18   And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that [it was] good.
19   And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

20   And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl [that] may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
21   And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.
22   And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
23   And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

24   And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25   And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.

26   And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27    So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28    And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29    And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which [is] upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which [is] the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30    And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein [there is] life, [I have given] every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31    And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was] very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

So there we have it, right? God created the heavens and the Earth and every living thing, including man, in six days. Six, 24-hour days.

And then…

Genesis 2:

1   Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2   And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3   And God blessed the seventh day , and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Here at the begininning of Genesis 2, we see the seventh day. Now we have seven twenty-four hour days.

So far, so good?

And then the next few lines of Genesis 2…

4   These [are] the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
5   And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and [there was] not a man to till the ground.
6   But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

These verses are a recapitulation of the Genesis 1 account of creation, when God created the heavens and the earth. They further explain the antediluvian conditions on that day, before there was ever rain, when a mist would rise up from the ground and…

Wait.

The heavens were created on the second day, but there was no ground until God separated the waters from the earth on the third day of Creation. Look again at Genesis 1 : 6-10.

Genesis 1:

6   And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7   And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which [were] under the firmament from the waters which [were] above the firmament: and it was so.
8   And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9   And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry [land] appear: and it was so.
9   And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry [land] appear: and it was so.
10   And God called the dry [land] Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that [it was] good.

How can the heavens be created on the same day there was a mist rising from the ground in Genesis 2, when these things occurred on different days in Genesis 1?

The word "day" in Genesis 1 and 2 is translated from the Hebrew "yom." It's the same word in all of the places I've highlighted in red. In fact, about 99% of the time the word "day" is found in the Old Testament, the original Hebrew is "yom."

If the word "day" in the Genesis 1 is a normal 24-hour day, rather than an allegorical phrasing for a much longer period of time (as seen elsewhere in the Bible, Ps. 90:4 and 2 Peter 3: 8 being good examples), and the word "day" in Genesis 2:4 is also a 24 hour day, we appear to have a contradiction between Genesis 1 and 2. The only way Genesis 2:4 can be reconciled is if "day" refers to a period of longer than 24 hours.

But if the word "day" is figurative in Genesis 2:4, then why not in Genesis 1?

Why does the word "day" in Genesis 1 have to mean a literal 24-hour period?

[RightWhale]

It's allegorical. Not to be taken literally. Same with most of the NT. Anyway, everybody knows the story is the same more or less as the rest of the creation myths of the region.

For example: how thick is the firmament? What is meant by the face of the deep? From John, "In the beginning was the Word": what is that about? These things have meaning, but not to literalists.

[monkeyshine]

I agree completely. That is my point, that the waters were already there.

[Diddle E. Squat]

I dunno, it seems that a devout Christian insisting on a literal 24-hour day is limiting God just as much as an evolutionist who claims it has to be over thousands or millions of years. As earlier pointed out, our time references mean nothing to God. Who's to say he didn't do it all in 6 of our seconds?

As to trying to show that Genesis contradicts itself, remember, God is explaining an act of his that is probably in totality far beyond what we could ever fully grasp and understand(like infinity and exactly who God is in all his manifestations, his omnipotence). Like a nuclear physicist trying to explain his job to his 2-year old child, God has likely simplified the story in order to explain to us in a way in which we can grasp the basics. So the story is told using images that any person can relate to, picture, and understand the concept being conveyed, but not necessarily literally.

No one will ever be able to fully explain or comprehend how God implemented creation, and it doesn't really matter. What's done is done, and we certainly aren't going to replicate it! What matters is that he could do it, and do it again, and anything he would like, so lets recognize his awesome power and presence and bow in humble thanks.

Or I guess you could believe in a big bang that just so happened to coincidentally have all kinds of absolutely statistically impossible string of convergences that resulted in a perfectly balanced self-correcting system that just so happened to produce men with souls(sorry dolphins, liberal affirmative action still can't give you that, maybe Flipper can go searching with the Scarecrow, Tin Man, and Cowardly Lion in the Wizard of Oz sequel).Even for a skeptic, the odds of a higher power creating the universe are far greater.

[RaceBannon]

You said that seeds are what made the plants, and that would allow for this long time period you thnk of, yet, the Bible says that PLANTS AND SEEDS were made at the same time

Genesis 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass,,( NOTE: NO SEED YET)
the herb yielding seed,(NOTE: SEEDS CAME AFTER GRASS),
and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind,,,(NOTE: FRUIT CAME BEFORE SEED)
whose seed is in itself,,(NOTE: SEED MENTIONED AFTER FRUIT FORMED) upon the earth: and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass,( NOTE: NO SEED YET)
and herb yielding seed after his kind (NOTE: SEEDS CAME AFTER GRASS),
and the tree yielding fruit,(NOTE: FRUIT CAME BEFORE SEED)
whose seed was in itself,(NOTE: SEED MENTIONED AFTER FRUIT FORMED) after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

...Clearly show both plant and seed were made on day three, together, not seed that became plants in some mixed up order, but both were created on day three. Grass was made before seed, see that?

[monkeyshine]

In direct answer to your question, a day is the 24 hours you spoke of (a period of sunlight and period of darkness) and God created all of it on the first day, as stated in Gen 2:1.

I will look into this more and report back. I remember studying this but cannot recall the explanation I was given so I will look it up further.

[CalConservative]

You are misreading the verse. In Genesis 2, it is spoken of as being a general time, as in 'the general period of time when', not as if it was the same day.

Exactly. Genesis is generally attributed to Moses, but biblical scholars generally believe there were two authors, P and J. The first creation account (Gen 1:1 - 2:3) is attributed to P, based on writing styles. Neither author is considered to be Moses, by the way.

Interestingly enough, the Creation Hymn (Gen 1:1 - 2:3), as it is often known, is considered to be the story of Creation handed down through the generations from Adam's time, which is why the poetic style is so distinct.

[RaceBannon]

I dunno, it seems that a devout Christian insisting on a literal 24-hour day is limiting God just as

Instead of thinking it is limiting God, think of this: I am quoting Him at what He said. He did not say He took undetermned time periods, He said He took 6 days. He did NOT say He let us evolve, He said He created us. See the difference?

This approach is not limiting God, it is trusting what He said as truth. If we cannot trust what He said, why believe it at all? Remember what Satan said?

Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said,.....

The arguement that we are limiting God, is actually calling God a liar. It is clear what He said, it says He did it in 6 days. What you might want to ask, is why did it take so long? Why wasn't it immediate? Why take as long as 6 days?

(HINT: It has to do with why we wear clothes, why the family is important, why we worship on a certain instead of others...)

[Diddle E. Squat]

Wow, I sure wouldn't go near that far. Other than Revelations and some of Jesus's parables and sayings, what else in the NT would be? The historical accounts are pretty straight forward, as are the teachings on lifestyles, sin, attitudes, Great Commission, etc.

[RaceBannon]

I agree completely. That is my point, that the waters were already there.

We only agree if you beleve the waters were created day one! :-)

[monkeyshine]

I will look that up further too. I was proffering a hypothesis, I'll readily admit I could be wrong. Note however that grass requires seed. You seem to be saying that the chicken came before the egg... and since we are discussing creation it is obviously possible, and your explanation makes sense. But it is not necessarily so since we know that He has not always explained the order sequentially (as in, the waters existed before the heavens and earth).

[D-fendr]

Some literalists insist on a 24 hour day, you follow that in your post.

So, looking only at that point (it could be key after all), what makes a day 24 hours long? A sun, a earth, the earth rotating on it's axis once in 24 hours.

At which point in Genesis are these requirements met?

[RaceBannon]

DONT GET ME STARTED!!!

The JEDP theory is a LIE!!!

Trust Jesus instead. Notice who He quoted when using the Old Testament!

(Mark 10:3 KJV) And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you?

(Luke 16:29 KJV) Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

(Luke 16:31 KJV) And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

(Luke 20:37 KJV) Now that the dead are raised, even Moses showed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

(Luke 24:27 KJV) And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

(Luke 24:44 KJV) And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

(John 1:45 KJV) Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

(John 5:45 KJV) Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.

(John 5:46 KJV) For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

(John 6:32 KJV) Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

(John 7:19 KJV) Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

Moses has to be REAL, not that theory about the Priesthood, the Deuteronical blah-blah, JEDP thing, throw that out!!

[week 71]

Great post and great graphics. The question is definetely an in-house debate. Another question is why was Adam so relieved when God finally created women, if it had only been a twenty-four hour day? Great questions for people who take the Bible seriously to muse over.

[RaceBannon]

Grass does not require seed. Future grass, however....

[monkeyshine]

We only agree if you beleve the waters were created day one! :-)

You're right, we may not agree after all :-) We both agree that the waters existed before the heavens and the earth. Yet Rashi explains that the waters were not completed (perfected) until the 3rd day (which is why God does not say "it was good" on the second day).

[supercat]

As I read it, a day means one period of sunlight and one period without. I suppose that is the same as 24 hours by our standards.

The "24-hour day" that is observable on most of the earth is the result of the Earth's rotation making the Sun alternately visible and invislbe to a ground-based observer. The Sun did not exist, however, until the Fourth Day. Therefore, something else must have created the light and darkness for the first three "days"; I see no reason to believe that those "days" were of the same duration as one rotation of our planet.

[monkeyshine]

I was trying to not be too esoteric, but you do have a good point. Things according to Genesis do not appear to have been "fixed in place" until at least the third "day"... which is why I kept saying "a period of light and dark" is what makes a day in Genesis 1. It's not necessarily 24 hours.

[RaceBannon]

We both agree that the waters existed before the heavens and the earth

No, we don't! :-)

[monkeyshine]

Agreed insofar as I have no reason to believe it either.

[monkeyshine]

OK then, we don't agree... but I'm not sure where we disagree. The waters came before the heavens. Heaven is made (partly) from water, as you will see if you learn the Hebrew root words -- heaven is a compound word made of the words "fire" and "water" -- He used water to make the heavens, so water had to exist before the heavens.