Posted on 01/02/2002 8:15:10 PM PST by Darth Sidious
Well, this should be an interesting thread, for the irony if nothing else…
About five months ago, on August 7th, a couple of your friendly neighborhood Freepers – namely, Rebelbase and yours truly – stood at the intersection of Battleground Avenue and Pisgah Church Road in Greensboro, NC, and protested the red-light cameras that have gone up all over the city. It’d take up too much time to go into the details of our Freep, and the full story is on the ”After-Action Report” thread. But for a quick recap: for over four hours under the hot August sun, we told motorists to “Smile: You’re On KOMRADE KAMERA”. We literally got hundreds of honks and thumbs-ups of support. Our friends in law enforcement said they supported us in our efforts against the red-light cameras. It was a lot of fun, and we met a lot of good people during our time at the intersection.
Well folks, that was Round One. Now comes the far more serious Round Two.
A few weeks ago I was driving down the same stretch of road, heading into Greensboro on some business. It was raining, there had been some fog but otherwise visibility was good.
As I approached the same intersection of Battleground Ave. and Pisgah Church Road, the light turned yellow. I began to slow down but saw the guy behind me not stopping, then putting on brakes and skidding on the rain-saturated asphalt. Now, I saw the light just turn red just as my car got to the line at the intersection. But if I came to a sudden stop, I would almost certainly have been rear-ended to the best of my judgment.
To make a long story short, I got caught by the camera. And I'm counting no less than 3, possibly 4 violations of the U.S. Constitution on the citation in front of me.
I could pay the $50 fine, and it would be a neat and tidy affair. I could also never tell my children, with any sincerity, about how much we believed these cameras were wrong, so much so that we braved 100-degree heat against them. And if I rolled over now, and let this go on, what kind of incremental damage would I be doing to my children's freedoms? The same freedoms that our forefathers paid a far greater price for, that we might enjoy these liberties?
God gave the stewardship of those liberties to we the people. Not to the state, not to any government, but to us. Folks, you will not believe how much I've seethed the past week or so at reading this citation, how much disregard that enough of the wrong kind of people have for the Constitution.
I could pay the fine, and be comfortable. Or I could contest, and justify my actions, that they avoided serious damage to my vehicle and more importantly, to myself. And quite frankly... my conscience simply cannot allow me to pay this fine. My heart is compelled with no other choice, but to fight. And to fight with every whit of my being.
There is a federal lawsuit against the city of High Point, NC, for their red-light cameras. That doesn't encompass Greensboro, however. And to the best of my ability there are no lawsuits against Greensboro regarding them. I'm ready, willing and able to go the distance, to pledge not to be worn down, to be persistent as all get out, however long it takes to prove what you and me already know: that the red-light cameras are a gross violation of the United States Constitution. I want... no, have to fight this... but I can't do it alone.
At this point, it has been advised that I post this to FreeRepublic.com's general forum, to fill everyone in on what's taken place, at the circumstances now before us and what we can make of it to contest the red-light cameras. And to ask for any advice and counsel that Free Republic's "legal eagles" might offer. Because when it comes to anything like filing a lawsuit, I'm a babe in the woods. I've the passion, just not the knowledge or experience. But I wanna give this all I can.
Either you have not spent a lot of time in a real courtroom, or you deal with an easily-amused subset of judges!
Hint: They hardly EVER laugh (unless they made the joke).
1. Pay the fine, and
2. Run for mayor.
Amendment XThe powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.
Help me understand, how does a state law or traffic camera violate the federal Constitution? Is that power explicitly prohibited to the states in our Constitution?
I'm presuming that you were on a public road, in a state licensed car, with a state-issued driver's license.
Also, there are a couple good books out by ex-cops on how to beat traffic tickets, much of the same logic or legalese might apply here. Also, for the more entrepreneural, a good book could be written on how to fight these, if you can actually figure that out, or compile a lot of success stories.
If not then time the lights and compare them to other lights. Find out where the sensors are and where they are supposed to be (one city they put them in the wrong place and were getting to many people because of that. When it was discovered they had to go back and repay everyone and wipe out the tickets. You also need to get a copy of the traffic planning report for that intersection which shows what they planned for the intersection in terms of times etc. You also need to compare the yellow light sequence against other similar intersections and what their traffic plans call for.
Then you need to research all the case law on this not only in your state but all states especially those that tossed out the camera convictions. Those are probably winning arguments if you get the right judge.
Last thing to remember that no one wants this to go to trial especially a jury trial. Most courts are very crowded and have backlogs. So do the DA’s and who ever would have to show up from the Police to testify about the camera and how it’s been tested before and after your ticket and shown to be accurate. Neither do you really. They explained it to me when I was called to jury duty one year where we were to hear DUI cases. . Each side tries to get the best deal they can as quickly as they can. If they can’t cut a deal then it goes to trial. At that point both the judge and the DA are pissed that you are wasting their time and you’d better win or the fine will probably be the maximum allowed to teach you and anyone else a lesson.
If you decide to go to trial then pick the one where it’s you the DA and the judge. Plead guilty with an explanation and a pleas for mercy. They can let you off with a warning, give you the fine you were supposed to get + court costs or toss the book at you in terms of the fine
As I said in the first paragraph pay the fine and get on down the road.
The most damage to your children would be to show that
even when you're in the wrong, you fight to get out of it.
Today's kids took an example from a sleaze-bag president that
wormed his way out of every wrong and illegal position he
got himself into. If the parents don't start teaching right from
wrong, and the responsibility of paying the consequences when
guilty, who the hell is going to teach them? Some president?
The lights may or may not be found to be unconstitutional
[I feel they are via our 4th and 5th Amendments], but if guilty
of the infraction, the consequences should be faced now.
If the cameras are found to be unconstitutional later, you can
then seek remedy.
Right?
It's penny ante extortion. No different than eliminating the rights we feel that are unnecessary. They make it 50$ so it's not worth the fight.
Excellent point! Depending on your insurer, make and model of car, and your age, sex and (to a lesser extent)your driving record, this "50 Buck ticket" could very easily cost you well over a thousand dollars over the next three years.
It would help if you had witnesses that saw the other car behind you. But certainly you'll want to issue subpeona's for the original pictures, the maintanence records of the camera so as to know when it was last syncronized with the light.
You also might want to file a motion for dismissal on the grounds that the clandestine nature of the camera denies you your right to present witnesses on your behalf. Because you didn't know that you were being "charged with a crime" you had no way of realizing the value of the people who were in your vicinity as witnesses. In essence they have denied your right to a fair trial. All of the people in the area who might have testified on your behalf are long gone.
Furthermore, you should look up the rules of arrest and evidence for law enforcement officers in your state.
They do not have a witness in fact. The camera itself cannot be cross examined. If they don't have a witness that you can cross-examine, how can you have a fair trial?
If there is no citizen who can swear out a complaint that you have caused harm, how can they peroperly charge you with a crime??
A lawyer could better answer when the proper time is to file a motion for dismissal.
Nobody in the court room at your trial can testify that you actually ran a red light. In fact perhaps the best angle is the witness angle. If the judge tries to argue that the camera is the witness and that you cannot argue with the camera, he would be testifying against you and must then allow himself to be cross-examined or open this up for a motion for mistrial. The judge cannot testify against you and also judge your guilt or innocence.
The interesting thing is, SOMEBODY is going to have to be and advocate for their side. It won't be a cop who witnessed the event at the scene. Who will it be?
He wasn't wrong. He's not fighting to get out of a ticket. He's fighting for what's right.
That doesn't work here. There was no cop. In fact, who was it that wrote the ticket? Was it a machine or was it somebody who reviewed the film?
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