Posted on 12/21/2001 11:34:36 AM PST by onedoug
"You got me plum-hypnotized," Elmer Gantry says to Sister Sharon Falconer in that film/novel.
Is that the case with me over Joyce Meyer?
She seems pretty good at down-home preachin'. And while not a classic beauty, she yet ministers out a fair amount sex appeal, along with the word.
(I think, ultimately, it's those Texas/Missouri eyes.)
I post this to philosophy since, as I know she has a fair amount of, at least internet detractors, it yet seems that her ability to project the Word, is as anchored in the integrity of faith as any other TV preacher I can recall.
...Except perhaps the late Bishop Fulton J Sheen.
In short though, Meyer lately fascinates me, and I'm curious what other Freepers may think. Particularly Evangelicals!
Thanks, and Merry Christmas to All!
Do you believe that your faith can override God's will and plan? Or is HE to bend His will to yours?
1 Timothy 2:9-10
The confusion that exists about the two extreme positions of women being used in the church (one, that she should be in the background in public worship, the other that she should fully participate in all things during public worship), has been brought about by a misunderstanding of this passage of Scripture and also by an unfamiliarity with the Roman world of Paul's day.
Let's establish first that God has used women. . . . In the Word of God we see Deborah, Queen Esther, Ruth, and others.
In the Roman world the female principle was a part of all the heathen religions, and women occupied a prominent place. The worship of Aphrodite at Corinth was probably one of the most immoral in which prostitution was actually made into a religion. The thousand vestal virgins who were in the temple of Aphrodite on top of the Acropolis there in Corinth were nothing in the world but prostitutes. They were characterized by very disheveled hair. The reason God said that a woman should have her head covered was so she would not be associated at all with religions like this. Also, in Ephesus where Timothy was at this time, women occupied a very prominent position in the worship at the temple of Diana. In all the mystery religions there were priestesses. It is because of these heathen practices that Paul is emphasizing in this passage that this matter of sex is not to enter into the public prayer in the services of the Christian churches. We need to approach this passage with these factors in mind.
When a woman is going to sing in church, to speak or to have any part in a church service, she ought to keep in mind that her appeal should in no way be on the basis of sex. She should seek to please God, and there is no way in whch she can appeal to Him on the basis of sex at all. Such appeal characterized the pagan religions in the Roman world, and Paul is stressing that it should not be a part of the public services of the Christian churches.
1 Tim. 2:11-12
These verses have to do with the learning and teaching of doctrine. Keep in mind that the women led in the mystery religions of Paul's day, and they were sex orgies. Paul is cautioning women not to speak publicly with the idea of making an appeal on the basis of sex. Paul strictly forbade women to speak in tongues in 1 Cor. 14:34.
Titus 2:3 Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips, nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good,"
Oh please, how in the world did you get THAT... out of what I said? Please don't put words in my mouth or twist what I've said.. just to have a premise to be argumentative. Not nice.
And it's been established that you have done the very thing you accuse JM of, by preaching/teaching to men on this board. So, you too...have disobeyed God... according to your own judgement.
Yours have spoken volumes. You obviously have no clue as to whom, Paul is addressing and why he is doing so in Corinthians. You say women have no place in teaching. What is teaching? Isn't it simply taking a subject and helping someone to understand that subject? Isn't it imparting knowledge or instructing? Haven't you attempted to take this subject and expound upon it to both men and women here? Haven't you attempted to impart your own knowledge here? Don't say no, because that would also make you a liar.
You assume that I have no knowledge of scripture. Your assumptions are laughable. I have studied them in Hebrew, and in Greek. I have also studied them historically under teachers greater than you could ever hope to be. I need not defend my own studies against the likes of you.
As for the diddy on Graham, you have got to be kidding. David Cloud is in no way a credible source. I suggest that you research your source's background before using him to slander a man of God.
"Is Matchett correct?" I have never heard her say that. The more important point, however, I have never heard her say anything against sound doctrine. His attacks against her have been unwarranted and unproven.
Perhaps Matchett-PI hasn't proven anything to your satisfaction, but this does not automatically mean that severe criticism by Matchett is unwarranted. Maybe Matchett has identified things about Joyce Meyer which you and I haven't seen.
Concerning your #295, I am prepared to stipulate that Meyer is "basically orthodox," --based on the criteria which you are implicitly asserting, of course--but this is beside the point.
What I am saying is that a little bit of really nasty leaven can ruin the whole lump. This is how Satan fools people very, very badly. He mixes a little bit of error with a lot of truth.
So, I am urging you to be careful. Some of the favorite Bible teachers in Christendom are bad in very surprising ways.
As for the diddy on Graham, you have got to be kidding. David Cloud is in no way a credible source.
Have no fear, I (and probably many others) have discerned, early on, you are a learned man of God. As for David Cloud, I had also earlier rejected him as a credible source to her, but she does not have ears to hear. To hold up Cloud and discredit Graham is laughable and further shows her clouded mind and heart.
I am aware of how Satan operates. It is as you have said, a little lie mixed in with truth--he is the master deceiver. I always make it my business to ensure that the words I hear spoken accurately reflect the Word of God. And as I have said, I have not heard Joyce Meyer yet utter anything contradicting scripture or sound doctrine. If and when she does, I will weigh it against what I know to be true and search the scriptures again, something she also encourages her listeners to do. If she is affiliated with the likes of Kenneth Copeland, and Benny Hinn, it would concern me; if she starts preaching their gospel instead of Christ's, my concern would turn to acknowledging that she is no longer preaching Christ and have nothing more to do with her. But as I said, this "preaching another doctrine" has not come to pass.
When Jesus told the pharisees "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone", he showed us that judgement is not ours to make. When we condemn a woman for trying to spread the word of God, we become as the pharisees.
That scripture "popped" into my mind just last night. And He, who was without sin, cast no stone either, but forgave her, "Neither do I condemn you; go your way. From now on sin no more."
My personal opinion is that many of those who are adamant about certain doctrines, spend too much time listening or reading only one or two theologists. We must remember they are human only, and the bible should always be our final Word. I almost fell into this trap myself.
Sadly, many think their salvation is secure because they warm a pew on Sunday morning or because they follow certain ministers.
I do not belong to any particular denomination. My church is nondenominational. I refuse to be bound by an individual's or a denomination's doctrine. Having said that, I do not consider all Roman Catholics, Baptists, Methodists, Prebyterian's, Episcopalians, etc to lost souls or heretics. I believe there are many in these divisions that do love the Lord with their hearts and souls.
This is because the Holy Spirit can break through the walls built up by church doctrine or the individual's spirit. I have a good friend who is Catholic, for whom I prayed for many years. She was touched by the Lord in her Catholic church and has asked him to be her Savior. She is a born again Catholic, still attending Catholic church, but also attending women's devotional study during the week. She has grown tremendously in God's Word and is living proof that God enters all churches, seeking out His own.
You dare say people like me are the reason the church is in the condition it is in? What of your generation? The generation that has slept while the enemy has devoured and slithered into the pulpits spreading legalism like a plague. The generation so preoccupied with telling believers what they can't do rather than telling them of their freedoms from the curse of the law. Have you repented of the sins of your generation that have been carried over into that of mine and of my children?
You are rooted in your desire to judge by the outward appearance of man rather than the heart and soul of such. I asked you, WHAT have YOU sacrificed for God? No answer. Meyers admittedly sacrificed her motherhood, Graham has sacrificed much to lead MILLIONS to Christ. ( BTW, your "proof" of his apostacy is really nothing more than pure bull as it is merely Graham's own words taken out of context ). Have you ever sat down and READ Graham's books? Or did you listen to Cloud and form your judgement? Have you ever LISTENED to Meyers or did you simply conclude that she was out of line with the Word of God. Do you even recognize that her ministry is primarily for women?
Always remember that only by pride cometh contention but with the well advised is wisdom. You have been contentious to nearly everyone on this particular forum with your vain and proud judgements. Until God's Spirit convicts me otherwise, I will continue to listen to those who edify my spirit and promote spiritual growth in my life through the teaching of His Word. I will continue to denounce those who place God in a box thus limiting His ability to work through these ministries.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.