Posted on 12/18/2001 4:10:48 PM PST by Pokey78
SOME years ago, an agnostic friend of mine married a Jewish woman who practised her faith seriously. He took instruction in Judaism and seemed quite likely to convert - but eventually did not. His chief reason was that he remained agnostic. But there was another obstacle that surprised even himself: "I found that I just did not want to give up Jesus."
In European culture, there is no getting away from Jesus even if you are agnostic. True, Nietzsche tried to reject him with detestation and contempt, calling him an "idiot", a purveyor of a sick, decadent view of the world. Nietzsche thought that the only figure in the New Testament who commands respect is Pontius Pilate. Yet the very ferocity of Nietzsche's onslaught on Jesus showed how strong in his heart was the image he wanted to destroy.
Now, what if my friend had married a Muslim? The interesting thing is that he could have kept Jesus - not the Jesus who was the Son of God, admittedly, and who was crucified, but certainly the Jesus who was Messiah and miracle worker, who conversed regularly with God, who was born of a virgin and who ascended into heaven.
Jesus is referred to quite often in the Koran, six times under the title "Messiah". Yet I had long supposed that the importance of Jesus as prophet in Muslim tradition was not much more than a matter of lip-service, something to which Muslims gave (to use Cardinal Newman's distinction) "notional" rather than "real" assent.
This impression was strengthened when I went to Ur of the Chaldees in southern Iraq and visited the so-called house of Abraham. It is only a few piles of sun-baked mud bricks, but you would have expected hundreds of Muslim Arabs to be visiting the birth-place of their Patriarch. I saw none - whereas the shrines of Muslim martyrs in Najaf and Kerbala were thronged. I assumed, therefore, that Jesus must be a marginal figure in the Muslim world.
How wrong this assumption was I have learnt by reading a fascinating and instructive book, The Muslim Jesus, by the Cambridge academic Tarif Khalidi. Professor Khalidi has brought together, from a vast range of sources, most of the stories, sayings and traditions of Jesus that are to be found in Muslim piety from the earliest times.
The Muslim Jesus is an ascetic, a man of voluntary poverty, humility and long-suffering. He literally turns the other cheek, allowing his face to be slapped twice in order to protect two of his disciples. He teaches the return of good for evil: "Jesus used to say, 'Charity does not mean doing good to him who does good to you . . . Charity means that you should do good to him who does you harm.' " He loves the poor and embraces poverty: "The day Jesus was raised to heaven, he left behind nothing but a woollen garment, a slingshot and two sandals." He preaches against attachment to worldly things: "Jesus said, `He who seeks worldly things is like the man who drinks sea water: the more he drinks, the more thirsty he becomes, until it kills him.' "
Many of the sayings of the Muslim Jesus are clearly derived from Biblical sources - "Place your treasures in heaven, for the heart of man is where his treasure is"; "Look at the birds coming and going! They neither reap nor plough, and God provides for them." Sometimes there is a sort of gloss on words of Jesus from the Gospel: "Oh disciples, do not cast pearls before swine, for the swine can do nothing with them . . . wisdom is more precious than pearls and whoever rejects wisdom is worse than a swine."
He is certainly a wonder-worker. He often raises the dead, and gives his disciples power to do the same. More than once he comes across a skull and restores it to life, on one occasion granting salvation to a person who had been damned. The skulls, like everyone else in these stories, address Jesus as "Spirit of God". Once he is even addressed as "Word of God".
I once had a conversation with members of Hizbollah in Beirut. One of them said this: "The greatness of Islam is that we combine Judaism and Christianity. Jesus freed enslaved hearts, he was able to release human feeling, to reveal a kingdom of peace. Jesus's realm was the realm of soul. Jesus is soul; Moses is mind, the mind of the legislator. In Islam, we interweave both."
This is certainly the Jesus of these stories - the Jesus of the mystical Sufi tradition. The great Muslim philosopher Al-Ghazali actually called Jesus "Prophet of the heart".
The Muslim Jesus is not divine, but a humble servant of God. He was not crucified - Islam insists that the story of the killing of Jesus is false. He is, as it were, Jesus as he might have been without St Paul or St Augustine or the Council of Nicaea. He is not the cold figure of English Unitarianism, and he is less grand than the exalted human of the Arians. As you read these stories, what comes across most powerfully is that the Muslim Jesus is intensely loved. There is an element of St Francis of Assisi.
It is good to be reminded, especially now, of the intimate connections there have been between Islam and Christianity, and how close in spirit Muslim and Christian piety can come to each other. Curiously enough, the Muslim Jesus, shorn of all claims of divinity, could be more easily held on to by my agnostic friend than the Second Person of the Holy Trinity.
One other thing: since Muslims deny the Crucifixion, their emphasis has been on the wonders surrounding the birth of "Jesus Son of Mary", born as his mother sat under a palm tree, and miraculously speaking from within the womb. There really is no reason why schools that put on Nativity plays, or anyone who wants to insist on the Christian meaning of Christmas, should fear that they may offend Muslim sensibilities, for Jesus really is shared by both faiths.
A nonsense. You CANNOT accept Budda without being a Buddist. You cannot accept Marx without being a Marxist. You cannot accept Muhammad without being a Muslim. Etc, etc ...
But Christans are those who accept Christ and Muslims ARE NOT Christians. Muslims believe that Islam is a superset of all true Christian and Jewish doctrine. They also belive that what of Christian or Jewish teaching is outside of Islam or Koran is FALSE.
In this false meaning of Islamic "acceptance" of Christianity, the Muslims would be the only true Christians and Jews, all others including actual Christians and Jews are at best misguded people and at worst impostors.
Sheesh.
"Present your case," says the LORD.
"Bring forth your strong reasons," says the King of Jacob. "Let them bring forth and show us what will happen; let them show the former things, what they were, that we may consider them, and know the latter end of them; or declare to us things to come. Show the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that you are gods; yes, do good or do evil, that we may be dismayed and see it together. Indeed you are nothing, and your work is nothing; he who chooses you is an abomination.Stretch for your hand O mighty Doom and save yourself from death! Or prove to me that you ever were after you are gone and your dry bones have gone into the ground. Boast of your mighty works then. Then, I will know that you are something."For you have trusted in your wickedness; you have said, "No one sees me'; your wisdom and your knowledge have warped you; and you have said in your heart, "I am, and there is no one else besides me.'
For the same reason you are answering them. Sheesh.
Just like someone who thinks that Jesus doesn't have enough power to make sure that the Sword which proceeds forth from His mouth is given without error to the saint to carry in his hand. One denial of Jesus divinity is just as bad as any other.
Because they're murderous heretics.
Actually, Jesus's station is at the right hand of God in Islamic thinking. He is far more exalted than John the Baptist, and as a Prophet, he carries the hallmarks of infallibility as Moses and Abraham. What is more, is that Islam believes that Jesus is the "Spirit of God" (Ruhollah), born of a virgin (holy Mary), and shall return as Messiah to lead man from darkness.
What slur! I have posted it directly from your own website. You can sugar coat it however you want, but the truth of exactly what you are saying is that the Muslim faith is God honoring and good enough to please Him and good enough for salvation. This makes the Muslim faith equal with the Catholic faith.
The Church holds, and has always held that those who have no access to the truth about Jesus Christ may still be saved by His perfect sacrifice. We are all judged by what we have been given, and those who have not been given the full truth of Jesus will be judged with His mercy in view of their ignorance.
Believe what you want! Just don't accuse me of casting slurs for what you plainly state you believe. Also, accept that such false teaching will be called with Biblical proof:
Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For they, being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.Most Muslims are ignorant of Christianity. Throughout the Muslim world bibles are banned. Preaching Christianity is punishable by death. Anyone who would become a Christian is under sentence of death. Any knowledge of the true mission of Christ is kept from them....if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture saith, "Whosoever believeth in Him shall not be ashamed."
For "whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the Gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!"
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.
So, what if preaching Christianity is punishable by death for it is written precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of His saints. So what if anyone who believes is under a death sentence for my Lord has said to me `The servant is not greater than his lord.' If they have persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept My saying, they will keep yours also. I bear in my own back the marks of the worlds hatred!
The sword of Islam will not be broken until the ground is wet with the blood of the saints. Then, blessed army of martyrs will have preached the Gospel and made converts among every Nation, Language, Tribe, and people group. A seed does not multiply until it is dead. Some of us are called to be seeds and follow after Him in this way. Then all His own may go home!
According to this damnable and cowardly system (that is the very essence of "lukewarm") it would be better to not missionary to anybody. It would have been better if Paul had stayed home as he would have been spared many beatings. And Peter was a fool for following after Jesus for the end of that road was a Cross. Better to keep the people ignorant and finish out a fat and comfortable life.
And what shall I say more? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and of Barak and of Samson and of Jephthah, of David also and Samuel and of the prophets, who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword. Out of weakness they were made strong, waxed valiant in battle, and turned to flight the armies of the aliens.Women received their dead raised to life again, and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection.
And others endured the trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea moreover, of bonds and imprisonment.
They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented (of whom the world was not worthy). They wandered in deserts and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise, God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
If you are referring to the Christians by that statement, I'm afraid I disagree. Missionaries and their families (children) are hardly that.
I read your profile and understand where you are coming from. Unfortunately, because religion is involved, passions on either side cloud the real issues, and neither one of us is probably going to budge.
BTW, and totally off the subject, good choice for a sidearm. Besides my Beretta, my second (spare) weapon of choice is a Walther P99.
I hope and pray that we find peace.
His premise that his agnostic friend could have married a Muslim and kept Jesus is completely wrong. No Muslim woman will ever marry outside her faith, if she does, it's a mortal sin and, by definition, she'd be denouncing her faith. Only Muslim men are permitted to marry outside their faith (how convenient). Many Muslim men do and especially American women. (I know, I was married to one.)
As for Muslims loving Jesus...not true. Muslims will proudly tell you that they believe in both the Torah and the Bible. But, when something in either the Jewish holy Book or the Christian holy Book conflicts with the Koran, they'll say that's because the real Torah and Bible were lost centuries ago and our translations are not correct.
Muslims believe that Jesus was an important prophet, a good man. But, as Christians, we know that's not what Jesus was, "a good man," he was the son of God who came to save us. They don't believe most of what he said and did because our version of the Bible is wrong, according to them. They don't believe his teachings, and most importantly his dying on the cross to save our souls and rising from the dead 3 days later. And they certainly don't believe in his second coming.
Lastly, (forgive my ranting) I find it interesting that Muslims say Jesus had a sling shot in his hand before ascending to heaven. I doubt if Jesus ever carried a weapon in his life - not that he was against them. But, the entire Muslim religion is based on conquering and warring, so this does not surprise me. The Koran tells them that Christians (who by definition believe in Jesus) are the infidels. So how can we say they love Jesus?
Think, man, think.
Of course I'm not referring to the poor Christians who were butchered by these people. By "murderous heretics", I mean the Wahabbi savages who murder innocents in the name of God. I assure you, they will burn in this world and the next.
A Walther P99?-- an interesting weapon. Do you have the 9mm or one of those 45 ACP, or 40 S & W varieties. I have been thinking about updating, and I hear good things about it. What's your been your experience?
Yes, it must be the fault of Christians that we are being pursued and destroyed around the world. More lies from the pit of hell!
Actually, Jesus's station is at the right hand of God in Islamic thinking. He is far more exalted than John the Baptist, and as a Prophet, he carries the hallmarks of infallibility as Moses and Abraham. What is more, is that Islam believes that Jesus is the "Spirit of God" (Ruhollah), born of a virgin (holy Mary), and shall return as Messiah to lead man from darkness.
First let note point out THE FOLLY OF THOSE WHO PROFESS TO [call him prophet], YET DO NOT, AND WILL, NOT, CALL HIM GOD. The question has sometimes been proposed to me, how it is that those of us who hold the divinity of Christ manifest what is called uncharitableness towards those who deny him. We do continually affirm that an error, with regard to the divinity of Christ, is absolutely fatal, and that a man cannot be right in his judgment upon any part of the gospel unless he think rightly of him who is personally the very center of all the purposes of heaven, and the foundation of all the hopes of earth. Nor can we admit of any latitudinarianism here. We extend the right hand of fellowship to all those who love the Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity and truth; but we cannot exchange our Christian greetings with those who deny him to be "very God of very God." And the reason is sometimes asked; for say our opponents, "We are ready to give the right hand of fellowship to you, why don't you do so to us?" Our reply shall be given thus briefly: "You have no right to complain of us, seeing that in this matter we stand on the defensive When you declare yourselves to believe that Christ is not the Son of God, you may not be conscious of it, but you have charged us with one of the blackest sins in the entire cataligue of crime.For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.You have so insulted us by denying the Godhead of Christ, you have charged us with so great a crime, that you cannot expect us to sit coolly down and blandly smile at the imputation. It matters not what a Man worships, if it be not God, he is an idolater. There is no distinction in principle between worship to a god of mud and a god of gold, nay further, there is no distinction between the worship of an onion and the worship of the sun, moon, and stars. These are alike idolatries. - C.H. Spurgeon from his sermon "[Jesus] Name -- THE Mighty God"
LOL. Yes that does make one wonder doesn't it? (while scratching head)
According to Muslims? Proclaim that there is one God, and he is Allah, and that Mohammed is His prophet.
Sorry, its not as simple as that. The muslim must try (works based redemption) to overcome all his life's wrongdoings. allah sends every last muslim straight to hades upon death. Then in allah's own good time he might decide to get you out of there.
That's why that the crowd chats at a muslim funeral, "We wish you paradise!" (Apparently,the only assurance to go to paradise at death is to kill infidels for him.)
Then the sexual repressive upbringing and hatred of women show up in the promise of so many virigins and "rivers of wine".
And people wonder why islam is so messed up?
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