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To: Flying Circus; Lent; Mark17; the_doc; Jerry_M; RnMomof7
I know you will never accept this answer to your slur against the Catholic Church, but here it is. The Church recognizes that Islam has a part of the truth- that there is one God and He is the God of Abraham. Sadly, the Muslem knowledge if the truth is disastrously incomplete.

What slur! I have posted it directly from your own website. You can sugar coat it however you want, but the truth of exactly what you are saying is that the Muslim faith is God honoring and good enough to please Him and good enough for salvation. This makes the Muslim faith equal with the Catholic faith.

The Church holds, and has always held that those who have no access to the truth about Jesus Christ may still be saved by His perfect sacrifice. We are all judged by what we have been given, and those who have not been given the full truth of Jesus will be judged with His mercy in view of their ignorance.

Believe what you want! Just don't accuse me of casting slurs for what you plainly state you believe. Also, accept that such false teaching will be called with Biblical proof:

Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For they, being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

...if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture saith, "Whosoever believeth in Him shall not be ashamed."

For "whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the Gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!"

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.

Most Muslims are ignorant of Christianity. Throughout the Muslim world bibles are banned. Preaching Christianity is punishable by death. Anyone who would become a Christian is under sentence of death. Any knowledge of the true mission of Christ is kept from them.

So, what if preaching Christianity is punishable by death for it is written precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of His saints. So what if anyone who believes is under a death sentence for my Lord has said to me `The servant is not greater than his lord.' If they have persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept My saying, they will keep yours also. I bear in my own back the marks of the worlds hatred!

The sword of Islam will not be broken until the ground is wet with the blood of the saints. Then, blessed army of martyrs will have preached the Gospel and made converts among every Nation, Language, Tribe, and people group. A seed does not multiply until it is dead. Some of us are called to be seeds and follow after Him in this way. Then all His own may go home!

According to this damnable and cowardly system (that is the very essence of "lukewarm") it would be better to not missionary to anybody. It would have been better if Paul had stayed home as he would have been spared many beatings. And Peter was a fool for following after Jesus for the end of that road was a Cross. Better to keep the people ignorant and finish out a fat and comfortable life.

And what shall I say more? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and of Barak and of Samson and of Jephthah, of David also and Samuel and of the prophets, who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword. Out of weakness they were made strong, waxed valiant in battle, and turned to flight the armies of the aliens.

Women received their dead raised to life again, and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection.

And others endured the trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea moreover, of bonds and imprisonment.

They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented (of whom the world was not worthy). They wandered in deserts and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise, God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


190 posted on 12/19/2001 8:24:36 AM PST by CCWoody
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To: CCWoody
What slur! I have posted it directly from your own website. You can sugar coat it however you want, but the truth of exactly what you are saying is that the Muslim faith is God honoring and good enough to please Him and good enough for salvation. This makes the Muslim faith equal with the Catholic faith.

What slur? That slur. That whole paragraph and everything implied with it.

The Section of The Universal Catechism you posted does not support your claim that the Catholic Church is in any way equvalent to the Muslems. Nor does any other part of the section from which the quote was taken. There is no equivalency to any other religion, only the recognition that other religions may have parts of the truth. The complete truth is found only in Jesus and His One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

The Church and non-Christians

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways." 325

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People, 326 "the first to hear the Word of God." 327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ", 328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable." 329

840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." 330

842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:

All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . . 331

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life." 332

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair. 333

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood. 334



According to this damnable and cowardly system (that is the very essence of "lukewarm") it would be better to not missionary to anybody. It would have been better if Paul had stayed home as he would have been spared many beatings. And Peter was a fool for following after Jesus for the end of that road was a Cross. Better to keep the people ignorant and finish out a fat and comfortable life.

The blood of (Catholic) Christian martyrs is fresh on the ground everyday in the Middle East, SouthEast Asia and Africa by the hands of the Moslims. The Catholic Church in no way accepts or teaches the "cowardly" and "lukewarm" system you are claiming. It is, unfortunately, very difficult to teach Christianity if all of the potential converts are too scared for their lives to even dare to listen. What is amazing that some do listen and will practice the faith underground knowing that if they are caught they will be killed.

224 posted on 12/19/2001 11:19:01 PM PST by Flying Circus
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