Never Blame the Left (Were the Nazis Left or Right?)

National Review Via http://www.mega.nu:8080/ampp/genocide.html ^ | Dec., 1995 | George Watson

[Dr. Frank fan]

Right - he was a socialist who railed against communists. Or, a national socialist as opposed to an international socialist. Socialism, as you can see, has many flavors; if conflict between two socialist factions "proves" that one Isn't Really Socialist, then how do you explain the original split between the bolsheviks vs. mensheviks? Which group wasn't socialist, in your opinion?

Ironically, despite Hitler's rhetoric, it was the communists who helped put him in power in the first place by siding with the Nazi party rather than the more moderate social democratic party.

[Ditto]

We are of the tradition of Burke, Locke, Jefferson, Smith, Bastiat and others...

Ditto that --- Classical Liberals. I call myself a Conservative, but what I am is a Classical Liberal.

This termonology stuff gets confusing. ;~))

[m1911]

farthest left being the communist extreme and the right being the fascist extreme

You must use a different dictionary than anyone else. Communists and fascists both believe in maximum government control of the economy. They differ on the titular ownership of private property, but the use of that property is always directed by the state. The far right believes in minimum government control of the economy, with the corollary of maximum protection of private property.

[harpseal]

So did Al Capone become a 'crime fighter' with the St. Valentine's Day massacre? ;~))

At the time it very much depended upon who was answering that question. Had teh question been asked of certain politicians in say Cicero you would have heard an answer praising al capone as a man of great virtue and a very respected individual.

Stay well - stay safe - Stay armed - yorktown

[detsaoT]

I'm sure there are many other examples. I didn't say it's a good thing, but to me, that would be the far right, not a megga state that managed nearly every aspect of life like Hitler's Germany.

*Blush*. Of course, you caught my argument with its pants down. I really did mean to attach the qualifier to my argument:

No such government has existed for any reasonable length of time (due to power ALWAYS coalescing into a group/person) in history.

Hope that makes a little bit more sense.

:D ttt

[Leesylvanian]

If the far left is total government as we had in the Soviet Union, or Mao's China, what is the far right? How could the Nazis be far right is they are so similar to the far left?

Hey, Ditto, mark the calendar, I'm going to agree with you! I think of left as total govt. and right as individual liberty. So, too far to the right would be anarchy (no govt, everyone fending for himself). Going to the left its a short leap from Hillary! to Stalin. Now if you want to talk secession, well...

[Leesylvanian]

I call myself a Conservative, but what I am is a Classical Liberal.

This is spooky. I've had the same conversation with several different people. Seems like we have more in common than either of us could have guessed.

[Pharmboy]

"Both 'socialism' and 'fascism' involve the issue of property rights. The right to property is the right of use and disposal. Observe the difference in those two theories; socialism negates private property rights altogether, and advocates 'the vesting of ownership and control' in the community as a whole, i.e., in the state; fascism leaves ownership in the hands of private individuals, but transfers control of the property to the government.

"Ownership without control is a contradiction in terms: it means 'property,' without the right to use it or to dispose of it. It means that the citizens retain the responsibility of holding property, without any of its advantages, while the government acquires all the advantages without any of the responsibility."

From: "The New Fascism: Rule by Consensus," from Capitalism, the Unknown Ideal,
by Ayn Rand, c.1966

This from VinnyTex above. I just couldn't have said it better than Ayn, so I didn't try.

Anyone exercising centralized power to dictate to the people of a country by definition is from the left. People on the right want a relatively weak central gummint, those on the left a strong one. So, in answer to your question, no, there have never been any rightists who were dictators.

[The Duke]

"It is a myth, that I am tired of hearing, that the NAZIs were Socialists."

So, let me make sure I've got you right on this...you're saying that the Nazi's were *NOT* lousy, low-life, worthless, n'er-do-well scum bags?

Or, rather than using the term socialist as it applies in modern America, are you saying that they didn't advocate the government owning the means of production?

[TemplarAkolyte]

32 Flavors of socialism

Soviet Communist, Chinese Maoists, Nazi Fascism, Cuban Communist-dictatorship, North Korea's f&cked-version, European socialism-lite, American Liberalism.

There's alway's a do gooder out there who will be duped into trying one of these flavors. Socialism looks sweet, but ends up tasting rotten.

[Ditto]

That Civil War thing was 'brother against brother' wasn't it?

[Leto]

The hatred of communism had more to do with turf than principles. Hitler viewed the Bolsheviks as his competition. Moscow maintained it was the leader of the world socialist parties. Hitler being as big a meglomaniac as Stalin found this unacceptable.

He also viewed the slavs as subhuman and expendiable the same way the Bolsheviks viewed the Kulaks as expendable.

[Ditto]

No such government has existed for any reasonable length of time (due to power ALWAYS coalescing into a group/person) in history.

I'd say it's because we need government, like it or not. Some really smart guy, (can't recall who) said; "If man were perfect, we would need no government." We're far from perfect.

I always like what Washington said about government. I'll paraphrase. Government is like fire... a very useful and necessary tool, but one that must be constantly watched.

All the various stripes of socialism allow that fire to grow out of control.

[detsaoT]

I'd say it's because we need government, like it or not. Some really smart guy, (can't recall who) said; "If man were perfect, we would need no government." We're far from perfect. I always like what Washington said about government. I'll paraphrase. Government is like fire... a very useful and necessary tool, but one that must be constantly watched. All the various stripes of socialism allow that fire to grow out of control.

Could not agree with you more, friend!

:) ttt

[Ditto]

Hitler being as big a meglomaniac as Stalin found this unacceptable.

The same happened between the USSR and the Red Chinese 15 years later. They even had some wars along the border. Gangsters don't like competition and know never to trust another gangster.

[Noumenon]

Socialism, fascism and communism are root and branch part of the same philosophical tree that gave rise to the totalist state in the 20th century. That tree bore the same fruit - genocide, misery, impoverishment and human slavery. That, my friend, is beyond dispute. Unless you're Noam Chomsky.