Never Blame the Left (Were the Nazis Left or Right?)

National Review Via http://www.mega.nu:8080/ampp/genocide.html ^ | Dec., 1995 | George Watson

[LazarusX]

They sure seem to be the coin of the relm in political discourse. How does some worthless piece of s**t American skinhead neo-Nazi get associated by the mainstream media with the American conservative movement? How does the American left regularly throw the Nazi word at their opponents and get away with it?

I'll bet you find lots of people right here that call themselves conservatives who hate gays, blacks, and maybe even jews. Like it or not, the type of christian who condemns others is associated with the conservative movement. Note: My intention is not to bash christians. Most of them are good people.

[Captal de Buch]

Hitler was a lezbitarian. :-)

[a_federalist]

I don't agree with it either. There was another FR thread (I don't remember which one) where someone had posted a chart showing the political "spectrum" as an ellipse rather than a line. It was very interesting. The poster had also pointed out that Timothy McVeigh (so called right wing extremist) had developed a friendship with Ted Kaczynski (so called left wing extremist) when they were in the same prison.
Anybody out there have a link to that thread?

[DrDavid]

I think Hitler and Stalin didn't like each other was because they were too similar.

[RightWhale]

The central issue for the Taleban is religion!

We say left-wing and right-wing, or liberal and conservative, but we don't always say whether we refer to militarism, religion, ethics, racism, jingoism, or economics. It is confusing at best. The question is not one-dimensional, not just left or right with in-between gradations. Where does fascism fit on the political spectrum, or are there instances of fascism amongst all political parties?

Then there is the Axis alliance. Were they all fascist or racist?

[lavrenti]

Stalin liked Hitler. A lot. There is a book titled The Mind of Stalin, where this thesis lies.

The two men were more similar than the other cared to admit.

As for ideology, Benito split from the Italian Socialists over the war. His brand of co-operative socialism was a pragmatic approach to getting the industrialists on his side. In the end, at Salo, he attempted something called "Facsism of the Third Hour" which was pure syndicalism with his face on it.

National Socialism burped out of a bizarre realm of ideas, ranging from bs "Aryan" mysticism, primal nationalism, thuggish anti-Semitism and the slacker cafe socialism of the Strasser brothers. They even lifted their name from a Czech ultranationalist group that briefly operated in exile from Munich!

The NSDAP, for damn certain, were left-wing. No one cannot tell me otherwise. The Left cannot use the argument about "nationalism" because Stalinism was also nationalist, racist and anti-Semitic.

[PeaceBeWithYou]

Lenin(a Marxist-centrist) always refered to the "Communist Left" and called the "Fascist right"(among other things like "a filthy rabble of former pro-Austrian nationalists, freemasons, republicans, mussolinists and other dregs of the socialist movement".) Of course he had choice words for the "Communist Left" also(infantile disorder, renegades, liberals, etc.)

As for a source, just google it with socialism, communism, fascism, left and right as your search terms, I'm sure you'll get lots of hits.

[Ditto]

BTW, I don't agree with the above, but is how most people define "left-right", based on the French parliamentary model.

I don't think it has anything to do with the French model. That was two hundred years ago when the argument was monarchy vs. republic. The above mention of Kings, Divine Right or Republican principles. It mostly talks about 'feelings' and offers no concrete measures. You didn't give a source for that, but it looks like something out of the NEA teachers text book. It is the ‘convention wisdom’ that while widely accepted has no logical order behind it.

There is no explanation or even attempt to quantify why Socialism/Communism is on the far left, but it's fraternal twin, Socialist/Fascism ends up on the far right. Since they say conservatives favor individual responsibility and rights and liberals favor group responsibilities and rights, would not the extreme on both ends be total collectivism through the government on the far left and total individualism sans government on the far right?

This is basically the same chart I questioned in high school 35 years ago. The chart in my class also had numbers on it. The teacher was stumped when I asked him what unit of measurement the numbers stood for. He didn’t have a clue.

[Ditto]

You are right. But I can also take you to some bars in my blue collar town where they hate 'bosses', hate 'companies', hate rich people, hate Jews, hate Blacks and hate 'foreigners' and especially hate 'queers' yet vote the straight Democratic ticket (at least once) in every election and have been doing it all their lives.

[LazarusX]

They sure seem to be the coin of the relm in political discourse. How does some worthless piece of s**t American skinhead neo-Nazi get associated by the mainstream media with the American conservative movement? How does the American left regularly throw the Nazi word at their opponents and get away with it?

I'll bet you find lots of people right here that call themselves conservatives who hate gays, blacks, and maybe even jews. Like it or not, the type of christian who condemns others is associated with the conservative movement.

Found them. Here's a thread about a couple of lesbians that killed someone. Post anything on homosexuals and the bigots come out of the woodwork: Lesbian couple, stabbed 13-year-old boy
The thread is about a couple of psychos, but as expected many posters extend it to all lesbians.
This place really creeps me out sometimes. Anyone that really supports freedom is called a liberaltarian. Maybe this place should be called bigots-that-justify-their-hate-with-the-bible republic. It seems that a lot of the people here only believe in freedom for people just like them.

[PeaceBeWithYou]

Ive heard this theory put out there, but if that is true, then how do you explain all of the private firms operating for profit in Nazi Germany (I.G. Farben, IBM, etc.....)...also I dont think the Govt owned all of those VWs.

Fascism isn't concerned with ownership of anything, it's about control. You can own it, but the Government dictates how or if you can use it. Eventually, in the case of guns, they even controlled who could own them.

Hitler's car? LOL. Volkswagon, sie treiben es an und mögen es = car of the people, you will drive it and like it.

[Fiddlstix]

BTTT

[Prodigal Son]

This is a very good article and a very interesting thread. If I might suggest to everyone who is interested in this topic a good book that covers this very thing, try:

FA Hayek's "The Road to Serfdom".

From the jacket cover:

...remains one of the all time classics of 20th Century intellectual thought...Hayek argues convincingly that, while socialist ideals may be tempting, they cannot be accomplished except by means that few would approve of. Addressing economics, fascism, history, socialism and the Holocaust, Hayek unwraps the trappings of socialist ideology. He reveals to the world that little can result from such ideas except oppression and tyranny...

It was first published in 1944 and it really breaks it down for you. It's a good book to read if you're looking for more ammo against the lefties and it provides answers as to why the Nazis were ideologically on the left.

Personally, I thought the term "left" in politics was first ascribed to a radical group in French Parliment long ago, the reason being- they sat on the left of the room. Left and Right seem a bit misleading to me. I've always been of the notion that there was "Freedom/Rights of Man" and "Anti- Freedom/anti- rights of man". It's either one or the other and I don't care if a person likes to feel "left", "right" or upside down, you're either for acknowledging the rights of the individual or you aint. All else flows from that. Quite obviously, neither the Communists nor the Nazis had any respect for the rights of man. Myself, I lump 'em all together with radical Islamists, Democrats, Greens and Banana Republic dictators.

[Ditto]

Maybe this place should be called bigots-that-justify-their-hate-with-the-bible republic. It seems that a lot of the people here only believe in freedom for people just like them.

You're overstating it significantly IMHO. I doubt there is a 'typical' Freeper, but if their were, it wouldn't be the one you are imagining. You seem to be way to sensitive on the subject.

[Hugh Akston]

No time right now to sit and read and reply properly.

More on this subject here.

[CWRWinger]

Nationalists are those who love their government, patriots are those who love their country. Therefore, the National Socialists (Nazis) were lovers of big, intrusive government, hardly a right wing precept.

[LazarusX]

You're overstating it significantly IMHO. I doubt there is a 'typical' Freeper, but if their were, it wouldn't be the one you are imagining. You seem to be way to sensitive on the subject.


I don't think it's everyone. There are a bunch of people who believe in freedom here, but there are also a bunch of wackos that emerge in every christian or gay thread. Note: I'm not bashing christians OR gays, though I'm neither.

[LazarusX]

You are right. But I can also take you to some bars in my blue collar town where they hate 'bosses', hate 'companies', hate rich people, hate Jews, hate Blacks and hate 'foreigners' and especially hate 'queers' yet vote the straight Democratic ticket (at least once) in every election and have been doing it all their lives.

You won't catch me supporting the democrats. Just like the republicans they're big-government authoritarians.

[Duke Nukum]

Yes, Marxist theory holds that religion is a crock, but they accept and understand that it can be used to acheive the progression they feel is inevitable.

Why do people spend their energies bringing about changes they feel are inevitable? I feel my own death is inevitable, but I do not go about willfully taking actions that will hasten it.

It seems, to me, a form of madness to dedicate one's life to such a goal. Couch potatoes make better use of their time.

[Hugh Akston]

It is the stated goal, not the actual goal. Every two-bit totalitarian realizes that the societies advocated by Marxism require a powerful state to implement, and that he who controls the state sets themselves for a life of comfort.