Posted on 12/02/2001 8:50:01 AM PST by H.Akston
Bob Barr just said on Sam and Cokie's show that the Bill of Rights is part of the Constitution, and the Constitution covers "persons", not just citizens, and "the Bill of Rights applies to all persons on our soil."
What about the 5th? Even if you think all persons, citizens or not, are guaranteed due process, as I do, you have to admit that these cases have arisen "in time of war or public danger." Or does that only apply to members of our own Militia? I'm so confused?
5th Amendment
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger;
To: BohDaThone
Read the Text
of the FIRST 7 WORDS IN THE CONSTITUTION,
to see who the Constitution,
and everything in it, applies to.
# 50 by H.Akston
************
"We, the people of the United States, in order to form..."
That sounds like man-made law to me.
It has no bearing on our God-given rights.
As an example, during World War II German agents landed on Long Island by submarine, disguised as civilians with plans to commit sabotage. They were apprehended and tried by secret military commission authorized by President Roosevelt. Six out of the original eight were executed.
By their own choice or acts of war against the United States, they placed themselves outside Constitutional protection. That's how I see this question of Constitutional protection of rights extended to foreigners.
Doesn't he realize that the Bill of Rights and the Constitution clearly identifies who is covered by the words "WE THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES", and that not everyone on this soil is "OF THE UNITED STATES"?
Okay, you're evidently confused about what "we the people of the United States" refers to in the Constitution. It's not the people covered by the Constitution. For one thing, the Constitution is the charter of government, so everyone under the government is covered, by definition. "We the people of the United States," for several stated reasons, "do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America." It's a citation of the authority issuing the Constitution. If the president signed something starting out, "I, George W. Bush, by the authority vested in me by the Constitution and laws of the United States..." you wouldn't think it only applied to him, would you? Same thing here.
If you want to see who has certain protections, look to the sections about those protections.
What sections or amendments do you think apply to non citizens?
And when you are in a foreign prison or facing a foreign execution my dear, that is a distinction without a difference.
If you're going to talk about the effects of the Constitution applying to an invasion (which of course it does), the logical thing to do is to read the Constitution itself to see what it says. Here's a quotation from Article IV, Section 4:
The United States shall guarantee to every state in this union a republican form of government, and shall protect each of them against invasion
So, then, the federal government is required to fight off any invasion, since an invasion of the United States necessarily involves invading particular states.
The article referred to comments made about the Bill of Rights. The arguments in the replies I read were referring to the Constitution (First lines) and the Bill of Rights. I was confused when the 14th ammendment was brought up by a couple of posters. I was merely pointing out that, as you put it, OBVIOUSLY only the first TEN ammendments belong under the title "Bill Of Rights". So why bring in the 14th, etc?
I would like to know why we ask immigrants to become citizens if they are entitled to the same rights as citizens? What would be their incentive? Just to be able to vote? ILLEGAL aliens are able to do THAT already.
Good point.
From the Supreme Court case of the Germans that were caught in the United States:
The Government may pass no law prohibiting freedom of the Press.
The Government may pass no law establishing a religion.
The Government may pass no law restricting the right to bear arms.
The Government may not inflict cruel and unusual punishments.
The Government may not quarter soldiers in people's homes.
Etc., etc., etc.
To ask if the Bill of Rights applies to citizens or non-citizens MISSES THE ENTIRE POINT!!!
The Government only has the powers the Constitution gives it. The Bill of Rights SPECIFICALLY list certain powers the Government DOES NOT HAVE.
Regarldess of whether non-citizens, citizens, goats, or martians are effected, Congress simply does not have the power to pass a law establishing a religion, or searching without a warrant, or convicting without a trial, or using compelled testimony, etc., etc.
You seem to think that the US Gov can do whatever it damn well pleases, limited only by certain "rights" ennumerated in the first 10 Amendments. That is entirely ass-backwards. Instead, the Government has only been given a handful of powers; the Bill of Rights technically WASN'T EVEN NECESSARY. Nowhere in Article I was Congress given the power to establish a religion. Therefore, the First Amendment is redundant. Ditto with the others. It was only because the Drafters knew there would be dunces like yourself that failed to comprehend the concept of delegated authority, that they added the Bill of Rights to make it CRYSTAL CLEAR that the Government HAS NO AUTHORITY to pass certain types of laws. And even then you still don't get!!!
DRAFTERS: Article I sets forth the powers of Congress. If it ain't listed in there, it doesn't have the power. Got it?
H. ASKTON: Uh... Well, can it establish a religion?
DRAFTERS: Aren't you listening? I just told you Congress only has the powers listed in Article I. Do you see anything granting it the power to establish a religion?!
H. ASKTON: Duh... I guess not...
DRAFTERS: You "guess not"?! Look, let me make it crystal clear for you. We're going to put in a special amendment -- just for nimrods like you who are too lazy to read Article I. Here... Read this: "Congress shall make no Law establishing a religion." Got it now?
H. ASKTON: So... what you are saying is Congress can't pass those kinds of laws, right?
DRAFTERS: Right!
H. ASKTON: Never?
DRAFTERS: No never!
H. ASKTON: Under no circumstances?
DRATERS: No! Absolutely under no circumstances!!
H. ASKTON: Ok... Don't yell.. I think I got it...
DRAFTERS: Well, it's about time.
H. ASKTON: One more question...
DRAFTERS: What is it?
H. ASKTON: Can Congress pass a law establishing a religion for non-citizens?
DRAFTERS: ARRRGHHHH!!!!! YOU IDIOT!!!!! WHAT THE H*LL IS YOUR IQ?!!? I GIVE UP!!!
To: MadameAxe
"How about the second?
I'm 100% behind the second amendment,
but I don't think it should apply to all foreigners here on student visas."
# 120 by Wissa
************
The Bill of Rights is a list of restrictions on our government.
It is not a list of rights. Remember the history of our country.
Recall that -
Any man, no matter where he is from,
has always had the right to speak his mind, and to worship as he wills.
Any man, no matter where he was from,
has always had the right of self-defense.
Any man, no matter where he is from,
has always been safe from un-reasonable search and seizures.
Any man, no matter where he is from,
cannot be held answerable for a capital crime,
without the indictment of a Grand Jury.
Any man, no matter where he is from,
has always had the right of trial by jury.
Any man, no matter where he is from,
has always been safe from excessive bail,
and from and excessive punishment.
It's not just for citizens.
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