Astronomers Find Massive Black Hole in Galaxy

Reuters ^ | 11/28/2001 2:56 pm ET | Reuters

[RightWhale]

This could be the basis of a future time machine. Black holes can be used for such purposes. But be aware that the committee chair will not personally get too close to the black hole, but might require the grad student to go down there and take measurements.

--Event horizon? Am I there, yet?

[Physicist]

(Take a snapshot of the Solar System one microsecond after it's created. Plot the trajectories of the planets, then take the known data, and "run it backwards", and see what you get. What you'll get are tables of where each planet would have been at various points in time before they existed!)

I submit to you that the conditions under which such a backpropagation is possible is mathematically equivalent to its having existed for that time. If God "created the universe" five seconds ago, it does not change the fact that I have existed, from my point of view, for much longer than that.

[Physicist]

OK, scenario 2. There are two moderately (but not extremely) large stars in close proximity. One of the stars, in technical terms, goes blewey, and leaves a typical black hole remnant. The outer atmosphere of the second star is disrupted by the blast, and much of it remains gravitationally bound to the system. Some ten solar masses or so of the companion's ejecta are eventually captured by the black hole; the rest eventually falls back to the companion star.

[Don Joe]

Correct. If you, me, and the rest of the universe was created sometime after I hit the Post Reply button to send this message, the results would identical to it all having existed for any longer period of time.

[Gordian Blade]

It's still cheating.

Also, if God created a "finished product," why is the universe constantly changing? The universe as a whole is expanding; the geology of the earth is changing; comets that existed for millions of years crash into Jupiter; quickly reproducing species like insects, bacteria, and viruses evolve within recorded human history; etc. The answer is that God created a wonderfully dynamic and complex universe that defies a simple explanation. The most compact yet complete description of the universe is the universe itself.

Yet another thought to ponder: It is impossible to assign a unique instant of time to points that are separated by space. Therefore, the only possible unique instant of time that God could have created the universe was the instant of the big bang when there was only one point in space.

[Don Joe]

"It's still cheating."

That's too puerile for comment.

"Also, if God created a 'finished product,' why is the universe constantly changing?"

And that's close on its tail.

By that logic, nothing qualifies as a finished product. Certainly not your body, or your car, or your house, or the computer you're typing this on.

"Yet another thought to ponder: It is impossible to assign a unique instant of time to points that are separated by space. Therefore, the only possible unique instant of time that God could have created the universe was the instant of the big bang when there was only one point in space."

More flawed logic. Your premise is that God is not infinite, and is not atemporal. In other words, you define-down God as being subject to natural limitations, and then, having defined God as being something other than God, declare that God couldn't have done it.

And in my opinion, that's cheating!

[ramdalesh]

You know, I read these type of books myself, but the abstraction level just seems too high for a forum like this.

black holes are those floppy eliptical black disks that bugs bunny runs into when he is getting chased by elmer fudd

[Lazamataz]

Maybe neutrinos are not exactly massless, after all?

You are evil.

Totally evil, for even implying such slander.

[Lazamataz]

By that logic, nothing qualifies as a finished product.

I am.

[Gordian Blade]

By that logic, nothing qualifies as a finished product. Certainly not your body, or your car, or your house, or the computer you're typing this on.

That's true. Especially my house and the computer I'm typing this on. :-) That's my point. Nothing in the universe is static or "finished".

[VetoBill]

How can a black hole become so big?

Simple, it got married.

[widgysoft]

i say we get a bloddy big rocket and send the taliban there!

[Don Joe]

"By that logic, nothing qualifies as a finished product."

"I am."

My condolensces. Shows you how out of the loop I am. I didn't even realize you'd died, let alone broken down to the basic elements your body was made of. :)

[rebelsoldier]

Hehehehe. ;)

[PatrickHenry]

Nothing in the universe is static or "finished".

Well, there's always scripture. That's finished, complete, closed, unalterable. Which is why it's so difficult for scripture to keep up with our ever-growing knowledge of the universe. Common solutions to this dilemma:

1. Deny the existence of all evidence that may contradict scripture.
2. Assert that such contradictions are part of the divine mystery.
3. Adopt the Taliban solution of supressing knowledge and rolling things back to the Dark Ages.

[Physicist]

Correct. If you, me, and the rest of the universe was created sometime after I hit the Post Reply button to send this message, the results would identical to it all having existed for any longer period of time.

So if recent special creation is mathematically equivalent to an ancient universe, we can dispense with the concept of recent special creation. An ancient universe is an infinitely simpler concept than the sort of creation you are postulating. Forget Occam's razor; Occam's guillotine is more than fine enough a tool to cut away such a creation.

[Physicist]

Yet another thought to ponder: It is impossible to assign a unique instant of time to points that are separated by space. Therefore, the only possible unique instant of time that God could have created the universe was the instant of the big bang when there was only one point in space.

You're missing the solipsistic beauty of it. It is possible to define an instantaneous global simultaneity with respect to Don Joe's reference frame. Furthermore, if God created the universe one nanosecond ago, he'd only have to work with Don Joe's retarded light cone out to a foot or so. Why worry about other observers in the universe? They see what God painted them to see for Don Joe's benefit.

[Gordian Blade]

Wow, that's a great point! The only problem is, the obvious standard universal reference frame is the one centered on GB. All other measurements derive from that.

[stainlessbanner]

Yes Sir, I do like that last name. Two of my fav. generals in one great name!
How 'bout this headline: "Jackson-Lee Stonewalls Brooks"

[IncPen]

There's a bigger one out in California: Barbara Lee

This would imply that Barbara Lee is a B-hole, which we know isn't true.

Barbara Lee is a A -hole, as we all know.