Prophecy Scholars, What End Times Signs are Playing Out Now?

Enquiring Mind (no pun intended) | 11/27/2001 | MississippiMan

[MississippiMan]

I found myself in a lengthy discussion the other day about the possibility that we are in or near the Biblical end times, and I'd love to hear the thoughts of some of you who have studied this issue.

What end times signs do you think have played out or are playing out now or will play out in the very near future?

Respectful request: this thread is intended to be a discussion between those who do believe in the Bible and its end times prophecies. While anyone is of course free to post, I sure would appreciate it if those of you who don't believe in God would not clutter up the thread with accusations of superstition and such. Thanks...

MM

[mercy]

Hey, it's a wager I'll grant you. I simply believe that we live in a logical universe created by a logicl God. In my assesment I've taken the odds that The Messiah is who He said He is. I've checked out all the angles and the evidence is as good as the evidence we have that Abe Lincoln was once president of the US. ( I mean, I never saw him, did you?)

Given our two positions remain as they are if my bet is wrong ... what do I lose? I certainly have lost nothing yet and have gained a lot seeing as how iron bars were definitely in my future. If your bet is wrong and christ's demands must be met ... where does that leave you? And even if you are right ... what are the benefits?

[AlGone2001]

Did you hear Him say that, or did you read it somewhere?

You've got to be kidding me?

For one who claims to know God, you've done no research.

Would you like to debate me on the Christ's place in the creation, as laid out in the "Gospel According to John"?

[stuartcr]

I'm sorry, but I think reality really is what's happening around you, I can't comprehend an alternative reality in this life or plane of exisence. I'm sorry you had a rough life, and I'm glad you have something which makes it better. Thankfully, I never did want to be in charge.

[mercy]

Well, I agree with you and I don't agree with you. Yes an unhealthy/unbalanced preoccupation with escatology would be error. But if it's in the Bible ( and it's certainly not confined to the Apocalypse ) it must be there for a reason. Prophecy has a very practical effect. It saves souls. Many are looking for evidence and a reason to believe. I was. Showing the spiritually hungry that God cares enough to provide prophecy as a tonic for unbelief increases the harvest. And isn't that what The Christ was concerned with? The Harvest.

[AlGone2001]

I'm sorry, but I think reality really is what's happening around you, I can't comprehend an alternative reality in this life or plane of exisence. I'm sorry you had a rough life, and I'm glad you have something which makes it better. Thankfully, I never did want to be in charge.

I'm sorry that I caught you at a point where you weren't prepared to take my open challenge. When will you be able to take it? It is still open, and I'm available.

[mercy]

Oh give it up Stuart. You know you don't have a leg to stand on. Suppose we were talking about some other non tangible aspect of life rather than spirituality. Let's say ... marriage. Your arguement would not hold water. Not at all. Well it holds no more water as regards faith. Surrender Stuart.

[28] Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

[29] Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

[30] For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. Matthew 11:28-30

[PeaceBeWithYou]

Most of the futurist(Millerites) view(circa 1840) comes from William Miller's and their misunderstanding of Matthew 24, in which Christ is refering to 2 seperate events not one. The "end of the age"(Old Testament) and the "end of time"(Second coming). The signs given in Matthew 24 are connected with the first event. For the second event Christ says that there will be no signs.

If you break it up into verses 1-35 and 36-51 you can easily see the two events.

vs. 1-35 refer to the events surrounding the destruction of Jerusalem and immediately afterwards

vs. 36-51 refer to the Second Coming of Christ and the end of time.

Everything up until verse 36 has a sign that is clearly identifiable (v. 15, 27, 30). However, concerning the Second Coming (v. 36ff) there will be no signs, and the Son of Man will come when no one expects it (vs. 42, 44, 50).

Jesus uses two main demonstrative pronouns that clearly show a transition from one time period to another. In v. 29 he speaks of those days" and "these things" in vs. 33, 34. He also says that "this generation" will not pass away until "these things" take place (referring to everything mentioned up to this point. When one considers Matthew's use of the words "this generation" it is clear he means people alive at the time of Jesus (which would mean the fall of the temple would occur before this generation passed - cf. Mt. 1:17; 10:23; 11:16; 12:39, 41, 45; 23:36.

Then in verse 36 Jesus says "but of that day . . ." thereby changing the pronoun from these things to that. This clearly demonstrates a transition to the description of a distinctly different event.

The "end of the age" happened in their lifetimes, it was the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70.

That Jesus would warn his disciples of this event and tells them to flee shows that Jesus truly cares about disciples and does things to help them escape or endure trials and tribulations. He still wants to provide rest (Matt. 11:28-30) and peace (John 14:27) today.

And he cared about us as well when he encourages all disciples to never let the cares of the world and its troubles distract them from being falithful to the end (Mt. 24:13) Jesus also wants all disciples to continually live in a state of readiness for His eventual return. We will not know in advance when He is going to come, but must always be ready and prepared (1 Thess. 4:13; 5:7; 2 Peter 3:9-15).

Why are they looking for signs so diligently? There are 2 possibilities that I can see: 1) They are victims of false prophets, or
2) They aren't living their life as they know they should be and are watching to know when to start doing so.

In any case, their watchfulness for the signs of the end will not help them.

[Citizen of the Savage Nation]

You are a member of the Talibornagain if you believe, as the Taliban does, that the 911 attacks were God's punishment on an eeeeevil America.(1)

You are a member of the Talibornagain if you see 'signs of the end times now'(2a) and America as the 'whore of Babylon'(2b)

I would say (1) Maybe, maybe not (2a) Definitely and (2b) Most definitely not.

However, one wouldn't be a very astute Christian to deny the signs of the end times. They are there, whether one wants to see them or not.

[Fifth Business]

Thanks. Splendid statement of the very doctrine of which I spoke.

However, I prefer to think those persons constantly looking for signs are well intended but misguided souls.

[AlGone2001]

However, I prefer to think those persons constantly looking for signs are well intended but misguided souls.

Excellent!

[Citizen of the Savage Nation]

You are talking about the rapture? I agree.

You can add

• It leads Christians to accept the first Christ that appears on the scene

Which we know is the fake one. Satan is incredibly intelligent (and desguised as an angel of light, lets not forget), so while the American Christian community (again, lets not forget that the rest of the Christian world by and large doesn't buy this false teaching) expects a rapture, Satan will be glad to give 'em one when he appears as AC.

[Jack Barbara]

What End Times Signs are Playing Out Now?

The credits are rolling.

[PeaceBeWithYou]

However, I prefer to think those persons constantly looking for signs are well intended but misguided souls.

I agree, and they fall into the first category...victims of false prophets. From my experiences about 90% fall into the first and it doesn't preclude their salvation, although it may not happen exactly as they think it will(I.E. No rapture, no tribulation, no 1000 year reign, etc.) Thankfully and hopefully His grace will cover a multitude of sins.

[jwh_Denver]

I don't get how (some) Christians just blatantly lie to support their own little religious hobby-horses. I mean, the claims about increases in earthquakes are easily checkable and it's not a matter of debate...anyone claiming earthquakes have increased is an obvious liar....not that the author of the post is...probably just naively accepting whatever apocalyptic end-times nuts are telling her.

I agree with you wholeheartedly on this subject. When I first saw the thread I thought "Oh boy, here it comes". Christians just tossing out their beliefs that are based on pure speculation, conjecture, and an active imagination further enhanced by wanting to believe something that may make "sense" or gets rid of the gray areas and makes them black or white. They read a verse in the Bible and start making up theories as to what the prophecy is. I once believed in the mainstream Christian belief of the time line of end time events e.g. first comes the rapture and then the time of tribulation, etc, etc. I have since thrown out those beliefs because I cannot back them up with Scripture. I'm willing to accept that the "mark of the beast" is something the Scripture does not tell me what it is. So I'm not going to start theorising that it is a microchip blah blah blah. I don't know and I can live quite nicely knowing I don't know but I do believe as the end times come near that God through his holy spirit will reveal the true meaning of the prophecies that are yet to come. Playing mental masturbation with prophecy Scriptures is generally what I see them doing with the rest of the Scriptures. Real sloppy. Some of the things I hear or read from "Christians" I would love to ask them "just what Scriptures can you show me that backs up your beliefs or did you just make it up?" A spiritual person will not play games with the Scriptures as they realize that wrong doctrine will make for wrong living and make you miserable. I believe the biggest lie ever propounded on humanity was when the devil (serpent) said to Adam and Eve "You shall be as gods". This is the basic crux of anybody's life today. Are you God or do you want the real Almighty God as your God? If someone wants to spout off about "their" scriptures why don't they write their own Bible? Essentially they already have.

[BibChr]

Respectful request: this thread is intended to be a discussion between those who do believe in the Bible and its end times prophecies

Isn't it striking that peoplw who can't read plain English (like the above) think they're authorities on the Bible?

Having said that....

I'm of the school of thought that affirms the plenary, verbal inspiration of Scripture. Therefore, I take prophectic passages as seriously as I do other didactic passages, and give full value to the words God chose. Therefore, I do can tell the difference between "Israel" and "church," and between a coming in which we meet Christ in the air so that we can ever be with Him, and one in which He lands on the Mount of Olives to judge the world -- including believers who obviously were not caught up to meet Him in the air and be "changed."

Thus also I know that Revelation has never yet been fulfilled, or it never will be. But I see the stage being set to play out the events in it as never before in human history. We see, as we never have, how the whole world could look on the bodies of the two witnesses in a three-day period; how all can be given a mark neccessary for buying and selling; and the rest.

Further, such a coalition of nations as the Bible envisages is easily foreseen now, as is the sort of totalitarianism we see. Plus, I think Bill Clinton has done more than anyone in my lifetime to show how a mortal can mesmerize masses into mindless and soulless support.

What I take from this is that the stage is set and, particularly with Israel occupying the land, the pieces are in place for playing out the foretold events at any moment. Yes, it might be centuries, and yes, our service should be daily and hopeful and all-out, and not at all distracted by presumption.

Dan

[MississippiMan]

What I take from this is that the stage is set and, particularly with Israel occupying the land, the pieces are in place for playing out the foretold events at any moment. Yes, it might be centuries, and yes, our service should be daily and hopeful and all-out, and not at all distracted by presumption.

Dan, you and I are on the same page. (I don't mean to leave out all the others who've responded, so please don't be offended.) I think the world stage is indeed set as it has never been before and that the prophesied events could now take place, where they could not in the past. We cannot know the hour--even Jesus himself does not--and are bound as Christians to live each day in service, but I also think we're obligated to be prudent and watchful for Biblical prophesies that may unfold in our lifetimes. I have zero intention of running up the Visa bills in anticipation of being whisked away and will plan to live my life as a Christian into my old age, but I will also keep my eyes open.

Now I'm going to go get my Bible and enter some of the information from an insightful commentary or two.

MM

[MississippiMan]

Well, I had intended to post a lot of info from my Bible's commentary but now that I look at it again, it's a bit much to type by hand so I'm gonna wait to see if I can find the same commentary already in e-form somewhere.

My Bible is called the Prophecy Study Bible and is published by Nelson Publishers in Nashville. It is chocked full of great info on this topic, if you're of the pre-trib bent, that is. Most of the commentary is written by a Texas pastor named John Hagee, and I really, really like his work. You can find out more about Mr. Hagee at JohnHagee.com and also buy a number of books and commentaries on these issues. The latest one has been updated to reflect the events of 9/11 and how Mr. Hagee's interpretation of the Bible leads him to believe terrorism will play a major role in fulfillment of Biblical prophecies.

The section of commentary that most closely relates to what we're discussing in this thread is entitled What Are the Ten Prophetic Signs that Confirm We Are the Terminal Generation? While I'm not going to type out all this information by hand, I will list the ten signs he discusses:

• The Knowledge Explosion -- Daniel 12:4 -- Hard to argue as to whether a knowledge explosion is taking place. The Internet and all that it entails qualifies beyond a shadow of a doubt.
• Plague in the Middle East -- Zechariah 14:12-15 -- Hagee interprets the plague to be the use of nuclear weapons, which can surely cause a man's tongue and eyes to be consumed before his corpse hits the ground.
• The Rebirth of Israel -- Talks about numerous Old Testament prophecies concerning bringing the Jewish people back to their homeland.
• The Jesus Will Return Home -- Focuses on Jeremiah and again the return of Jewish people to the state of Israel.
• Jerusalem No Longer Under Gentile Rule -- Talks about how Jerusalem since 1967 is under Jewish command for the first time A.D. 70.
• International Instant Communication -- Revelation 11:3, 7-10, the two witnesses bodies' being seen in the streets by the world.
• Days of Deception -- Humanism, environmentalism, and all the other forms of deception in which things are definitely not as presented to be.
• Famines and Pestilence -- Talks about all the starvation and disease in the world. Matthew 27:7, 8
• Earthquakes -- Symbolically used to communicate with the spiritually dead.
• As in the Days of Noah -- Matthew 24:36,37 talks about how the end times will be like the days of Noah before the flood, in which wickedness was dominant and pervasive. I think few would argue that we do not live in a time that not only experiences wickedness, but actually embraces and promotes it.

These are some of the signs I've been thinking about recently and form the core of a list I hope will emerge from this thread. There are issues not touched upon in this particular commentary that have been mentioned in this thread, such as the red heifer, the continued attempts to begin construction of the third temple, etc.

As I (and many others) mentioned in earlier posts, I believe the stage is set as it has never been before, and that it is entirely possible that the end of this age is upon us. Comments on the things in the list are welcomed, and I appreciate the responses that have come. It goes without saying that we as Christians should be vigilant at all times, and I believe that we must now be more vigilant than ever in our service to the Lord Jesus Christ.

MM

[stuartcr]

I never said I new God, I said I believed in one, true God. You are correct, I have not done any research. Why would I want to debate anything?, especially about something I know nothing of?

[stuartcr]

Why would I want to take a challenge? Is this some sort of competition to you?

[crystalk]

For starters, read my new post under St Paul foresaw Islam; warned against Preterism.