Posted on 11/26/2001 10:25:19 PM PST by MississippiMan
I found myself in a lengthy discussion the other day about the possibility that we are in or near the Biblical end times, and I'd love to hear the thoughts of some of you who have studied this issue.
What end times signs do you think have played out or are playing out now or will play out in the very near future?
Respectful request: this thread is intended to be a discussion between those who do believe in the Bible and its end times prophecies. While anyone is of course free to post, I sure would appreciate it if those of you who don't believe in God would not clutter up the thread with accusations of superstition and such. Thanks...
MM
That's a great response to those who attempt to interrupt genuine discussions.
For later reading, and BTW thanks so much for this thread, a very interesting one for sure.
This attitude of watchfulness and expectation can be seen in the writings of Paul and the early church.
Hence, I am perplexed at the obsessive interest in "signs of the times" exhibited by some among us. Of course we are living in the end times. So was Paul.
Just an example. You asked about names.
In all respect I always marvel at the position you have taken. It's quite common amoungst thinking people who don't want any answers. There you stand ... as though you have created yourself, surrounded by an infinite miriacle (The Hubble telescope can nearly see an infinite distance and science is pretty sure we are only looking at a small fration of the universe) and you just don't want to know.
Look at your hand. You admit that it HAD to have a designer (why else think there is a God?) but you deny that this God has ever reached out to man in any knowable way. Why? Why is the most logical written evidence of God, purporting to be the very Word of God of no value to you? Can you, by taking thought, add one/eigth of an inch to your stature? Can you tell us where the universe came from? Do you wonder why the greatest human being who ever lived and influenced more people than any other single human being said certain things and did certain things? Why were the Apostles and many of the desciples willing to endure a torturous life and final death for this man? How thick must your psychological insulation be to thoroughly ignore these central events in the human drama of all time?
There are many who make that claim; but, since you seem to aiming for clarity...
It is more accurate to say that He is "the First and the Last", the "Alpha and the Omega", the "Ancient of Days, the "Way, the Truth, and the Life."
Is is even better to quote Chist as saying that "no one comes to the Father but by Me."
It's logical that I took that route, since Christ was, and still is the Creator.
Point A: Yes, you have been misinformed. It is statistically likely that you went to public school, and the humanists have been busily re-writing history for at least a century to support their statist ideology.
Point B: Although I cannot condone the excesses of the conquistadores, the society they built does not sacrifice thousands of human beings on pyramids any more. It is objectively superior to what it replaced.
I hope this has been helpful!
Stuart, don't you think it's far more logical to base an opinion on the concrete information he gave us, as opposed to just plucking it out of thin air to conform to what we would like it to be?
In any event, this is going to be my last reponse to this particular debate because it's not the purpose of the thread and this is how focused discussions turn into a broad, ambiguous, convoluted bunch of mush.
All the best to you, my friend, and I mean that...
MM
And there is another reason. Because the US seems to be absent from prophecy it might mean that we have been hidden. The voice of the seven thunders was sealed and hidden. Maybe some other things are too. Perhaps if this nation remains largely faithful we may get a special blessing when The Messiah returns ..... like a (rapture) Hey it's just a dream not a doctrine.
Jesus, when speaking prophetically, used the standard prophetic vocabulary that any Biblically literate hearer would recognize.
Hence, the confusion today!
(Whenever the prophets spoke of the visible heavens in disarray, they were metaphorically discribing political upheaval. But you need to be Biblically literate and familiar with the genres of Scripture to make that connection)
Excellent point. This is exactly so. Having been ravingly insane several times in my life for usually brief moments (although one marriage seemed to last a lifetime) I came to the absolute revelation that reality was by no means a constant. Just look around the world. People invent their own realities. Like you. Look at the islameist reality. Sheesh. Talk about nuts! Look at cultures all over the globe throughout history. Beyond nuts! (female circumcision) (Jim Jones kool aid drinkers) (Jap sarrin gas distributors) etc etc etc.
So .... not wanting to fall prey to wild and stupid alternative realities (that marriage almost killed me and some of the things I did when I was a kid SHOULD have killed me) I determined the need to discover the TRUTH and stick to it. God IS Truth and he has revealed Himself to men. It's Jesus Stuart. I know you are fighting it but trust me. It is better to serve in heaven than reign in hell ( and you won't be reigning anyway ).
Sorry I failed to give you a sufficient number of adjectives when describing my faith. Sorry that "trinitarian" "creedal" "innerrant" etc. are not sufficient "bona fides" to establish (lit.) "good faith!" Out of reluctance to exclude the millions of folks I recognize as brothers and sisters in Christ, I left off some of the more restrictive descriptors: such as, Calvinist, Reformed, charistmatic, evangelical, member of last church for 20 years, of current church for 20 months (job-related move), tongues-talking Holy-Ghost filled child of the heavenly Father, gladly participating in ongoing mission of a church that has planted 12 daughter churches in the last 12 years ...
Do you need any other "qualifiers" before you can stop discounting my eschatology on the basis of defective christology?
I appreciate your sentiment but it seems to me pointless speculation given the doctrine of Imminent Return. Christ could return at any moment, so all Christians should be living as if these are the end times.
Let me try to be clearer. The question "Are we living in the end times?" presupposes the possibility of a contrary answer (No, we are not living in the end times). Since no man knows the time of Christ's return and we are to expect it at any moment, a contrary answer is impossible or at least not in harmony with the teachings of the New Testament.
Another concern of mine is that those who look for signs and try to interpret them using the symbology found in the eschatalogical and apocalyptic literature of the Bible have a rather poor record of success. Apocolyptic literature is deliberately recondite and one of the most difficult literary genre to interpret.
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