Posted on 11/16/2001 1:16:15 PM PST by ExiledInTaiwan
Click here for the book: Origin of Conflict
This is a lie and fabrication. It was the Arabs who were supposed to get along in the National Home. After all, it was a JEWISH NATIONAL HOME. Instead, the Grand Mufti precipitated riots and mayhem as part of the Pan Arab Nationalist agenda. Let me quote from this brave Islamic professor to indicate how Arab nationalism (fascism) effected the issue:
What The Qur'an Really Says
By Shaykh Prof. Abdul Hadi Palazzi
The Qur'an says that Allah gave the land of Israel to the Jews and will restore them to it at the end of days. The Qur'an says:
"To Moses We [Allah] gave nine clear signs. Ask the Israelites how he [Moses] first appeared amongst them. Pharoah said to him: 'Moses, I can see that you are bewitched.' 'You know full well,' he [Moses] replied, 'that none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth has revealed these visible signs. Pharoah, you are doomed.'""Pharoah sought to scare them [the Israelites] out of the land [of Israel]: but We [Allah] drowned him [Pharoah] together with all who were with him. Then We [Allah] said to the Israelites: 'Dwell in this land [the Land of Israel]. When the promise of the hereafter [End of Days] comes to be fulfilled, We [Allah] shall assemble you [the Israelites] all together [in the Land of Israel]."
"We [Allah] have revealed the Qur'an with the truth, and with the truth it has come down. We have sent you [Muhammed] forth only to proclaim good news and to give warning."
[Qur'an, "Night Journey," chapter 17:100-104]
Shaykh Prof. Palazzi Comments
God wanted to give Avraham a double blessing, through Ishmael and through Isaac, and ordered that Ishmael's descendents should live in the desert of Arabia and Isaac's in Canaan.
The Qur'an recognizes the Land of Israel as the heritage of the Jews and it explains that, before the Last Judgment, Jews will return to dwell there. This prophecy has already been fulfilled.
Muslims Must Recognize The State of Israel As A Jewish State
Is there any fundamental reason which prohibits Muslims from recognizing Israel as a friendly State?
I realize that a negative answer to the above question is taken for granted by popular opinion. My approach, however, is not based on popular opinion or the current political situation, but on a theological analysis of authentic Islamic sources.
Viewing the Jewish return to Israel as a Western invasion and Zionists as recent colonizers is new. It has no basis in authentic Islamic faith. According to the Qur'an, no person, people or religious community can claim a permanent right of possession over any territory. The Earth belongs exclusively to God, and He is free to entrust sovereignty over land to whomever He likes for whatever time period that He chooses.
"Say: 'O God, King of the kingdom (1), Thou givest the kingdom to whom Thou pleasest, and Thou strippest off the kingdom from whom Thou pleasest; Thou endowest with honour whom Thou pleasest, and Thou bringest low whom Thou pleasest: all the best is in Thy hand. Verily, Thou hast power over all things.'"(2) [Qur'an 3:26]
From the above Qur'anic verse we deduce a basic principle of the Monotheistic philosophy of history: God chooses as He likes in the relationship between peoples and countries. Sometimes He gives a land to a people, and sometimes He takes His possession back and gives it to another people.
In general, we can say that He gives as a reward for faithfulness and takes back as a punishment for wickedness, but this rule does not permit us to say that God's ways are always plain and clear to our eyes, since His secrets are inaccessible to the human intellect.
Using Islam as a basis for preventing Arabs from recognizing any sovereign right of Jews over the Land of Israel is new. Such beliefs are not found in classical Islamic sources.
Concluding that anti-Zionism is the logical outgrowth of Islamic faith is wrong. This conclusion represents the false transformation of Islam from a religion into a secularized ideology.
Such a false transformation of Islam was in fact made by the late Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin el-Husseini. He is the one person most responsible, both morally and materially, for the repeated Arab defeats in their conflict with the Jews in Israel.
Husseni not only incited Arabs against Jews. He also encouraged the torture and murder of all Arabs who correctly understood that Arab cooperation with Jews was a precious opportunity for the development of the Land of Israel. Husseini ended his woeful life by putting his perverted religious teachings at the service of the evil and pagan Nazis.
After Husseini came Jamal al-Din 'Abd al-Nasser. Nasser based his policy on Pan-Arabism, hatred and contempt for Jews, and an alliance with the atheistic Soviet Union. Nasser's terrible choices were critical factors in maintaining Arab backwardness. Fortunately, most of Nasser's mistakes were afterward corrected by the martyr Anwar Sadat. (3)
After the defeat of Nasserianism, Islamic fundamentalist movements made anti-Zionism the primary feature of their propaganda. They presented the negation of any Jewish rights to the Land of Israel as rooted in authentic Islam and derived from authentic Islamic religious principles.
ABOUT SHAYKH PROF. ABDUL HADI PALAZZI:
Shaykh Prof. Abdul Hadi Palazzi is a Member of the International Council of the Root & Branch Association. Prof. Palazzi is Secretary General of the Italian Muslim Association (AMI), an Imam of the Italian Islamic Community (ICCII) and Director of the Community's Cultural Institute. Prof. Palazzi holds a Ph.D in Islamic Sciences by decree of the Grand Mufti of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. Prof. Palazzi is also Muslim Co-Chairman of the Islam-Israel Fellowship.
The Jews sought peace and economic growth. The PAN ARAB NATIONALISTs sought to either redhimmiize the Jews or drive them to the sea.
Interesting. You're the one using this language. You're the one using rhetoric and diatribe. Is the Islamic professor above also bigoted concerning Arabs since he too identifies the problem in terms of PAN ARAB NATIONALISM?
You didn't "come" to this position. You were already predisposed to it. Read my posts just above yourself and then either retract your comments or leave them so that we can see how rhetoric and false historical presumptions guide your comments.
Utimately, the pro-Israel crowd here has exactly four arguments.... None of these arguments is valid. And none of the pro-Israel ranters have ever made any arguments which don't fall into one of these categories. Mostly, they just shout.
Do you usually engage in strawman arguments and diatribes like this? Refute the historical and fact based posts which have been made before your post or else be exposed as nothing but a propagandist of falsehood. I find it amusing how accusations like "The ones who denounce Israel are discredited lefties. They lie." are really the projections of those who don't have the time nor inclination to examine the historical record. Instead, individuals like you create ad hominems and then curl up in a ball and cry foul when the accusation is given back. Either play by the rules and examine the material or find something else to do. Either way pee or get off the pot.
More lies. Here are the ethnic cleansers: The Arab Islamics and the Jihad of Islam:
Arabization and Ethnic Cleansing (the fairy tale of "indigenous Palestinians" exposed (my title))
"At the beginning of the conquest....the conquered populations of the Orient were still using their national languages: Aramaic (Iraq, Mesopotamia, Syria, Palestine), Coptic (Egypt), and Pahlavi (Persia), and the foundations of Arab power were still weak. Consequently, notwithstanding their repugnance, the caliphs and their governors had to resort to the services of local Christian or Jewish administrators, a situation which risked jeopardizing the performance of their power. It therefore became imperative to consolidate Islamic politico-military domination by a demographic increase in Arab numbers and by Muslim legislation to stabilize the situation....These two phases, which roughly corresponded to the period of Arabization under the Umayyads [661-750 A.D.] and of Islamization under the Abbasids [750-1517 A.D.] , definitely ensured the Arab-Muslim hold on the conquered lands and population.
In fact, the postconquest period was a time of intensive Arab colonization dictated by strategic requirements. For whereas pursuit of the ongoing jihad procured considerable booty and cemented Islamic solidarity, these battles in far-off lands weakened the Arab military presence in the conquered countries. To mitigate this danger, Umar, and particularly Uthman, adopted a policy of Arab colonization pursued by their successors.
The continuous migration of whole tribes with their flocks---tribes originating from different regions of Arabia and often hostile to one another---not only created problems of settlement in towns and country areas that were among the most fertile and most highly populated, it also gave rise to difficulties regarding subsidies and cohabitation with the native population, the nomads being adverse to agricultural and urban occupations.
The flow of migration, duly controlled by the Arab military administration, was directed toward specific regions. Certain tribes joined up with military population centers: Basra and Kufa in Iraq, Fustat in Egpt for example: others received the vast domains farmed by the native inhabitants reduced to slavery or bond service (Iraq, Egypt, Spain, the Maghreb). In Palestine and Syria, tribes from Yemen and nomads from Hijaz settled in the towns and countryside where they took over houses and lands...
This Arabization had disastrous effects on the native populations, as the confiscation of lands by the invaders and the appropriation of houses and villages did not take place without plundering and abuse. This emigration had four major consequences. First, the total area of the conquered lands was seized by a tribe originating from Mecca, who exercised their military authority through nomadic Arab tribes. Second, the massive Arab emigration engendered endemic anarchy in countries where hitherto, in comparison with the native population, they had only constituted tiny minorities on the desert fringes.....Moreover, during this period of Arabization in the Near East, the caliph Abd al-Malik (685-705) forbade the use of native languages in the administration, replacing them with Arabic. Thus emigration into countries of settled civilization by nomads, who were strengthened in their bellicose habits by the ideology of jihad and by their victories, increased the instability, while plundering turned cultivated areas into deserts." (Bat Ye'or, The Decline of Eastern Christianity Under Islam (1996)pp.58-60).
But of course. Consider the words a heart-felt missive to you as well.
I find it amusing that you would dare say this as the first posts of the shout-them-down corner have been:
Alouette: Barf alert
Inyokern: Left wing propaganda. The left hates Israel, even the Jewish left.
Alouette: Barf alert
MississippiMan: MegaBarf alert
Veronica: Leftwingnuts.
veronica: Shouldn't you Lefties be posting at DemocratUnderground or SmirkingChimp.com? LOL....
veronica: Most Jews in America, Liberal or Conservative, support Israel totally.
scooter2: Nothing worth reading here, move along.
[more crud from veronica and alouette]
marty60: PO is a Muslim symp.
sbertooth: [some biblical justification]
micheal2001: these stupid leftist Jews keep blaming Israel for not making peace
Need we continue?
.
As for the historical record, it's not difficult for any thinking person to discern the broad outline, which is why I have always had a pro-Palestinian bais. These facts are:
1. In the 1880s, Zionists decided to carve a Jewish homeland out of Arab lands, displacing the inhabitants.
2. The inhabitants objected to this takeover, as they had a clear right to do so.
3. 700,000 of them wind up in refugee camps when said Jewish homeland is finally created over their objections.
4. More Palestinians wind up under occupation by the Zionists after 1967.
5. Israelis slowly strangle the rest of Palestine for the next 34 years.
The questions of how much killing was done by either side and who did what to whom to what time kinda pale when compared to these basic facts, don't they?
What I have learnt in the last two months relates to how much the Israelis stole and murdered to create Israel and how much the stories of Arab aggression since 1948 are fabrications. But even if all this is Arab propaganda, it's still changes nothing. You can't deny any of the basic facts I listed above. They are the underlying rationale for the Arab claim to Palestine and they are irrefutable.
Fascinating! All this time the pro-pals have been screaming that the Jews stole the land and that's their beef. Then when it becomes impossible to ignore the fact that the Jews BOUGHT the land, not STOLE, BOUGHT, suddenly that's beside the point. Now I wonder what "the point" is?
Look, I understand that you pity them. But they were squatters. That was not their land. They did not pay taxes to any government in exchange for protection and rights (as we do, as the real land ownders did) therefore they were there on someone else's dollar. And when someone who WAS paying taxes on that land says you have to go, well, you have to go. That's how it works.
Nor was there any justification for the Jews not permitting Arabs to return shortly thereafter, despite resolution after resolution of the world community.
Yes there was, it's called self-protection. Arabs have attacked Jews again and again, even when offered statehood, even when given land as a peace offering, even before Israel existed. Muslims cannot stand for other types of religions to practice self-rule, they've proven this for 1400 years. I don't even know how you can say these things.
How do you explain the Grand Mufti shaking hands with Hitler? The same way you explain how Roosevelt shook hands with Stalin.
The GM didn't just shake hands. He was a collaborater. He spent half of WWII in Germany. He asked the Luftwaffe to bomb Tel Aviv. Nazis and Muslims... as you say... have a shared enemy.
Well, I think you just answered your own question: the Palestinians have a history of considering land theirs when in fact it is NOT.
Alouette: Barf alert
Inyokern: Left wing propaganda. The left hates Israel, even the Jewish left.
Alouette: Barf alert
MississippiMan: MegaBarf alert
Veronica: Leftwingnuts.
veronica: Shouldn't you Lefties be posting at DemocratUnderground or SmirkingChimp.com? LOL....
veronica: Most Jews in America, Liberal or Conservative, support Israel totally.
scooter2: Nothing worth reading here, move along.
[more crud from veronica and alouette]
marty60: PO is a Muslim symp.
sbertooth: [some biblical justification]
micheal2001: these stupid leftist Jews keep blaming Israel for not making peace
Need we continue?
Oh yes please do. The reason: you guys get on these threads and use endless diatribes (IFC for example) against supporters of Israel. Therefore expect to get back what you dish out. This is precisely what I stated to you will happen. Do think this thread is the first thread on this issue? Do you think this group has never been quoted before and dealt with repeatedly? If you do you've been living in a vacuum. Therefore, expect to get back what you pups dish out. And when it comes, don't whine.
As for the historical record, it's not difficult for any thinking person to discern the broad outline, which is why I have always had a pro-Palestinian bais. These facts are:
1. In the 1880s, Zionists decided to carve a Jewish homeland out of Arab lands, displacing the inhabitants.
2. The inhabitants objected to this takeover, as they had a clear right to do so.
3. 700,000 of them wind up in refugee camps when said Jewish homeland is finally created over their objections.
4. More Palestinians wind up under occupation by the Zionists after 1967.
5. Israelis slowly strangle the rest of Palestine for the next 34 years.
Despite your simplistic summary, none of the factual posts have been addressed in the above. Therefore, you claims are left wanting, specious, and blatantly false.
What I have learnt in the last two months relates to how much the Israelis stole and murdered to create Israel and how much the stories of Arab aggression since 1948 are fabrications. But even if all this is Arab propaganda, it's still changes nothing. You can't deny any of the basic facts I listed above. They are the underlying rationale for the Arab claim to Palestine and they are irrefutable.
Facts? What facts? Again, you're left without a single substantive response to these issues but will continue on with you vacuous diatribes.
.
1) If the land belongs to those who were there "first" then it undeniably belongs to the Jews. If you want to say "the Palestinians were there 'first'" you have to be convinced that Muslims are descendents of those that the Old Testament Jews killed in order to take Canaan. Since Muslims themselves trace their descent to Abraham's son Ishmael, this makes no sense. (And this is not a "God ordained it" argument, I'm an atheist. But I do believe the Bible has historical significance.)
2) The Jews didn't steal the land, they bought it rightfully.
3) The Arabs were offered statehood in 1948. They rejected it. Then they attacked Israel.
4) Not all Palestinians are refugees, about 1,000,000 have Israeli citizenship.
5) Those who are refugees have as much claim to Jordanian citizenship (more really) than to Israeli. But they don't want it and Jordan doesn't want them. Why? Why would they rather be refugees in Israel than citizens in Jordan?
What is your problem with this? Are the subjects under discussion not radical leftist whackos? Are the comments of these self same Leftists on the topics of abortion, feminism, religion, homosexuality, affirmative action, "blame the USA' for 9/11, not regularly ridiculed and flagged for "BARF ALERT" here on Free Republic? Why should their views on the Mideast situation be given so much more credibility and reverence than their misguided notions of everything else?
Jordan didn't gain independence till 1946.
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