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Gun Control After September 11
FOXNEWS ^ | Friday, November 2, 2001 | Glenn Harlan Reynolds

Posted on 11/02/2001 9:09:31 PM PST by Scalia Rules

Edited on 04/22/2004 12:31:31 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

"I think all women oughta carry a cell phone and a three-fifty-seven. Loaded." So declares a woman interviewed by The New Republic's Michelle Cottle.

That statement seems to sum up the post-Sept. 11 attitude toward gun control. Things were already tough for the gun-control movement. Convinced that Al Gore's strong anti-gun stance had cost the Democratic Party the 2000 election, the Democratic Leadership Council had already called for a softer line on gun control. Bill Clinton and former White House spokesman Joe Lockhart had pronounced Gore's stance a mistake. Meanwhile, product-liability suits brought against gun manufacturers were failing miserably in courts from New York to California.


(Excerpt) Read more at foxnews.com ...


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To: Scalia Rules
.45's are B.S.

a doctor friend of mine said when they get gun shot victims in with 9mm....they usually fare well.....
...but anything from a .45 cal in the torso, and the shock wave damage alone to other internal organs will kill you.

one shot - your down for good
and with practice - one shot is all you need

101 posted on 11/03/2001 8:21:30 PM PST by drq
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To: Twodees
Wow. What a pleasure it is to converse with all you well-informed and experienced folks. Anyone (not you) want to buy a T.V.?

My points are these: The .45 is a proven fight-stopper, low-pressure, low-velocity, thereby easy to control round, once one gets used to the low, throaty Booooom, and the push, rather than snap of a 9mm+P, which, just as ANY .38, it needs. It's a well known axiom that a .38 needs barrel length in which to burn powder, to build up pressure/velocity, and be effective at all. The .38S&W, which the .45 was designed to replace, was a famous non-entity. It wasn't until the early-mid 1960's, I think, that Lee Jurras pioneered the high-velocity .38 round, with his "Super-Vel" load, also using inverted, hollow-base wadcutters to maximize the anemic and deficient practical performanc of hot-loaded .38s, especially in short barrels. Many police departments were still using the notoriously ineffective 200gr. round-nose .38 at that time. Not until Gun-magazine testing in the 80's and 90's did people accept the fact that, if one disregards the fire, side-spray and awful racket, that a short-barrelled .38 or even .357 was delivering anything worthwhile downrange. Now the "automatic" craze, which is fine, but does not negate the proven physics and practical reality. Here we have a LESS than .38 caliber bullet (.355), of a nationally police-proven miserable bullet shape, made even worse by not being softer lead, but guilding-metal jacketed (has its good points, however), in a pistol which does not like to cycle lead, and often hollow points, and rarely of different weights and designs, of smaller parts and surfaces than the slow, large, boring yet battle-proven .45ACP and its intimidating (NYPD Stakeout/Undercover "Anti-Crime" Detectives' personal choice, when possible) muzzle "hole," being all-around smaller is therefore more magazine-sensitive, add to that a polymer frame which is famous for softer than the usual sharp snap 9mm recoil, but due to the frame actually flexing, which is clearly observable using photography...making it more susceptable to jamming due to "limp-wristing," which less experienced/trained/strong shooters are prone to do, incidentally the ones the package is frequently marketed to (although the internal mechanism is remarkable, with the exception of "no second-strike capability", which keeps some P.D. Armorers of my acquaintence averse to carrying it--Browning designs and all single actions don't have it either!), well, that's a long way to go to accomplish little more than having a "perhaps" slimmer, less complicated to function, high capacity because the first one or two didn't do enough (like you have time to wait!), that NEEDS to be fired more, which adds to the chance of a jam at the least convenient time. Wow. Impressive. Makes a six-shooter look like the genius' first choice. Suddenly, in the supposed age of the Fritz-helmeted, GPS-wired, night-vision "Infantryman of the Future," Barney Fife with more of the right ammunition could stop a fight with less, simpler and more reliable actual shooting being done. Is this progress?

The .45ACP, whether one likes it for whatever reasons or not, works. It is the same size going in, even the dead-reliable functioning Ball, than the 9mm will not be coming out, which it may or may not. 9mm/.380s' hollow points fill up with material, creating a de-facto FMJ, negating the complicated and unpredictable (speak to experienced pathologists) "controlled expansion." The round will reach across the street flatter and faster, and being more pencil-like, probably penetrate better. That is true. This is why these conversations continue to take place, and why people like me carry both, at different times perhaps, and for different reasons.

The .357Sig in as common as a hen's tooth, probably works well after impact...basically an automatic .357...but awfully small, anged sharply, high pressure, demanding of the already clockwork-like action (why I like to carry lower-velocity, softer bullet loads in my beautiful High Powers), and is largely unproven in the field or street. Potential, though.

As for swords or guns...properly-mounted and utilized bayonets. Oh yes. The Old West practical technique of "buffaloing," or slugging your adversary over the noggin with ones', in those days, probably 7 1/2" barrel...still works. However, several well-seasoned active and retired NYPD Detective friends have reported to me that when applying the technique, always hit with the muzzle, NEVER sideways, or on the trigger-guard. The cylinder may unlock, and with a Chief, the guard WILL crush around the trigger...better use a Model 10 or something heavier, like a Det.Special...or you may find yourself with a once expensive steel rock in your hand...and hoping your teeth are sharp enough for what may be coming next! Another Anti-Crime gent advises to carry a Ruger revolver, because at muzzle-to-nostril range, he often gets asked..."is that a Magnum?" because of its non-S&W shape. Intimidation must work pretty well for him, as we were always allowing him to use our gun-shop bathroom, to wash the meat and hair out of the action. He got free WD-40 from the boss.

Well, as we say in New York, usually with more of a crooked grin than since 9-11...Have a nice day. Happy trails, all.

102 posted on 11/03/2001 11:25:21 PM PST by PoorMuttly
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To: PoorMuttly
Another significant, practical note: Wild Bill Hickock, the deadliest gun in the west, carried two .36 cal. (more like today's .32!) Navy Single Actions, in TWIST-draw, cavalry fashion, and up very high. He was reputed to be THE calmest man under fire, would take the heat, and precisely place the pill where it needed to go. That's why I qualify things with the proviso that a person knows how and is willing to use it with controlled determination.

Oh yes! The Ruger .22. Do you remember the early Ruger ad, I think, for the pistol...the standard length, blued version? I recall that it was the narrative of a man who always placed one in his belt before taking the garbage out at night. He placed the trash in the can, heard a noise, looked up...to find himself in the outstretched arms of a standing, not too friendly brown bear. He did the only reasonable thing he could...which was to shove the .22's muzzle under the bear's chin, and fire all 13 rounds. The bear dropped, dead. Speaking of bear defense....a lot of people shoot them in the head, but to no avail. A bear's brain sits a LOT lower than a human's...so one simply blows their eyebrows and lots of muscle off the top of their heads, enraging them further. Aim low...if you can, shoot for the mouth, and run. Jim Fowler, of T.V. fame, once told me that pepper spray was the only thing that woked for them against bears. Now a note from me: DO NOT spray pepperspray around your campsite, to keep them out. They love the stuff, and have been observed rolling in it! Good night!

103 posted on 11/03/2001 11:45:41 PM PST by PoorMuttly
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To: PoorMuttly
make that Cajun woked bear.
104 posted on 11/04/2001 1:01:09 AM PST by PoorMuttly
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To: PoorMuttly
make that Cajun woked bear.
105 posted on 11/04/2001 1:01:09 AM PST by PoorMuttly
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To: truth_seeker
If you're really serious about the best hearing protection, you might want to check out some of the electronic hearing muffs. You can even turn up the gain to aid your hearing but the muffs will react to gun fire to filter out the report. They're expensive ~$135. You might want to check out Dillon.

http://dillonprecision.com/template/p.cfm?maj=7&min=0&dyn=1&

You'll have to cut and paste, I don't do links.

106 posted on 11/04/2001 3:36:40 AM PST by DugwayDuke
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To: DugwayDuke
I heard they were very good, if somewhat heavy.
107 posted on 11/04/2001 5:38:23 AM PST by PoorMuttly
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.357's have more "one stop shots" in the field, but obviously thats old info by now. They compared 9mm but didn't have .40s in the stats (Handgun magazine)
108 posted on 11/04/2001 5:42:55 AM PST by KneelBeforeZod
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To: PoorMuttly
Good points. About the only .38 round that I have experience with in a semi-auto is the .38 Super. I've never much cared for 9's. What I bought my wife as her carry weapon is a Taurus 2" 945 in .22wmr. She can hit what she wants to with it, which is the main point of carrying in the first place. A .22wmr round anywhere in center mass or in the neck and head is better than 16 9mm rounds in the walls and sky around an attacker.

I've given up on Ruger along with S&W because Bill Ruger is such an idiot about the 2nd amendment. Thanks for the diatribe. It was interesting and informative.

109 posted on 11/04/2001 7:37:37 AM PST by Twodees
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To: 68-69TonkinGulfYatchClub
To: TaZ

"and the Liberal Democrats made them all criminals."

Don't forget the Republicans also.

How the Brady Bill Passed (and subsequently - "Instant Check")
When the Brady Bill was passed into law on November 24, 1993,
the Senate voted on the Conference Report
and passed the Brady Bill by UNANIMOUS CONSENT.

NOT ONE SENATOR FROM EITHER PARTY VOTED AGAINST THIS

!!!!!!!

110 posted on 11/04/2001 7:51:07 AM PST by Mercuria
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Comment #111 Removed by Moderator

To: AnnaZ; HangFire; Lady Jenn; Kithlyara; feinswinesuksass; abigail2; AnneJustice4all; miss print...
BELLES 'N' BEAUX BUMP!!!
112 posted on 11/04/2001 7:55:48 AM PST by Mercuria
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To: Dogbert41; Scalia Rules
Why did we go to 9mm?

To be in Politically Correct lockstep with our NATO Allies, who also use the 5.56mm and 7.62mm NATO rounds.

113 posted on 11/04/2001 8:42:15 AM PST by gc4nra
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To: Mercuria
BTTT
114 posted on 11/04/2001 8:43:30 AM PST by 2Trievers
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To: PoorMuttly
The beretta 70S/71 Jaguar series in .22 long rifle was long a favorite of the mossad. They are viable tools when shots are properly placed.

Stay Safe..

115 posted on 11/04/2001 8:45:25 AM PST by Squantos
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To: El Gato
Long Beach P.D.(CA)never switched and even the FBI has switched back. Pretty poor gun enthusiast that can't handle a .45.

Most of the Liberty Belles I know can shoot them well!

116 posted on 11/04/2001 8:47:15 AM PST by gc4nra
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To: Squantos
Rumor has it that Diem, former president of So.Viet Nam was assasinated with a Colt Woodsman .22.
117 posted on 11/04/2001 8:51:05 AM PST by gc4nra
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To: gc4nra
i'm not a member of the Liberty Belles, but I am a woman, and I own two .45 autos, and can shoot more accurately with them than with my .40. I don't own a 9 mm, so can't make the comparison. I don't find .45's to be at all difficult to handle, but then I did work my way up to them. I started with a Ruger .22 target pistol and worked up from there.
118 posted on 11/04/2001 8:57:33 AM PST by .38sw
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To: Mercuria
Sooo much material to work with in this article, but I like this best. It is here that things seem to have changed the most. Americans have learned that being harmless does not guarantee that they will not be harmed: in fact, it seems that terrorists (like ordinary criminals) actually prefer victims who cannot strike back.

DUH!

(Great Sunday moring read;-)

119 posted on 11/04/2001 9:20:27 AM PST by HangFire
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To: Mercuria
BUMP
120 posted on 11/04/2001 9:22:51 AM PST by Native American Female Vet
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