I'm calling PETA!
Posted on 11/01/2001 6:06:29 AM PST by vannrox
I am with you...I would have fought tooth and nail, clawing and scratching to get out. But the fact that a lot of people did jump only shows how hopeless their situation was.
Totally and utterly hopeless.
Wow, what a brilliant counterpoint, NOT. If you were more honest you would just put your hands over your ears and go LA-LA-LA.
1) Don't put words in my mouth
That's not a denial of my claim. And since you felt free to put words in my mouth I'de have to say if you don't like, don't do it.
2) If you think these people are "choosing" to jump, you are hereby a certified IDIOT.
Being in pain, or being afraid, or disliking all other options more doesn't mean you don't have a choice. What evidence do you have that every who could jump, did? What evidence do you have that there wasn't somebody who could have but didn't? I outlined 3 options that people had, what made the other 2 not just distastfull to you, but an actuall impossibility? You denounce my views but seem unable to give any sound reasoning to your position.
Feeling you have no choice isn't the same thing as actually having no choice, and I expect that many if not all who jumped FELT they had no choice, but I (hope) that I wouldn't feel that way because it's never true. You always have a choice about how you react to your circumstanses, you might not like any of the options you have to choose from, but you still have the ability to pick any one of them.
3) Zip it. (I repeat myself).
You repeat yourself because you have nothing to support your position.
And still it seems too many freepers are too blockheaded to understand it. So sad, we pick on the left for acting on feelings yet here are many freepers shuting out all reason themselves.
If I had the choice of jumping to my certain death or having to hear you restating the same old position ad nauseum in relative safety; I'm thinking that I would jump.
Don't tempt me. :)
You have beaten the dead horse and hijacked this thread and turned it into your own little plaything.
Oh, so I'm just supposed to sit here and be insulted and misrepresented and not reply to it? If you don't like what I'm saying you can present your arguments against it or ignore it.
Here's a little thought experiment that may help you grasp what is obvious to everyone else....
The situation you describe is so contrived that I really don't see it as being a good analogy. The pain of burning has failed to stop parents from rushing into a burning building to save their child at times, and if a person can choose to rush into a burning building, then it's possible a person can choose to rush through a burning building to try and find a way out. Not everyone who could have jumped did.
The pictures I saw of those falling didn't seem to indicate that they had even been burned at all. Now that could just be because of distance the picture was taken from, but I would not be surprised if some who jumped did so simply because of the fear of a painfull death, and not because they were actually in any pain at that instant.
Sorry, that reactions was carry-over from an earlier post.
But the fact that a lot of people did jump only shows how hopeless their situation was. Totally and utterly hopeless.
I'de say more it showed how hopeless they felt. I hope that in whatever circumstances I find myself, I still am able to hope for a way to get through it. If there is a way, it won't be found if you don't look for it, and if there isn't, then it doesn't matter anyway.
I'm calling PETA!
What you fail to understand is that these people, prior to jumping, were watching others try to survive by going through the fires and they burned alive. It wasn't a matter of choosing the safest way out, the fact was there was NO way out. The fire engulfed them all and everyone who made a run for safety burned alive. Those who jumped probably felt their skin bubbling while they watched in horror as their coworkers burnt to death. In the meantime the fire was drawing closer. Another thing to consider is that the jumping was not a conscious choice but an instinctive one.
I see one remedy only to really insure our safety, and that is the removal from our borders of the threat. Not only will that not be done, but the flood gates are still open to this very day, to anyone that wants to enter this country from a terrorist nation. And they don't know one bit more about the individuals they are letting in now, than they did about Attah, nor are they able to track them one bit better than they did Attah.
Never Forget
now I am glad at least one of them did!
That's your choice but if you just want to make anti-immigration speeches, then please don't pretend to engage in a discussion only to ignore anything stated that doesn't fit your anti-immigration template. You would do well to recognize when those who agree with your overall position may not agree with every point you raise and to at least allow for a difference of opinion without condemning the Bush administration as useless and ineffectual on security and to wave away any opinion from someone who doesn't buy the concept that we can simply seal everything off and track hundreds of thousands of immigrants close enough to determine their whereabouts every hour.
Out of fear and apparently, anger, you propose that the government make everything 'safe', which is absurd. I doubt we'll see any airline hijackings now but what is to prevent a suicide bomber-type explosion in some huge mall by some demented Arab fanatic or even an American sympathizer?
There can be no such thing as total security in a huge country like ours that is open and free and not the semi-police state you seem to welcome. Please look at Israel. Think they have security better than ours? Oh yeah, and suicide bombers come and go at will, it would seem. My point is that short of a Cuba-like police state, you cannot have total security much less secure borders and totally controlled immigration. Won't happen, and pounding the Bush administration endlessly won't do a thing except relieve some of your apparent stress over this issue.
Yes, our borders are a joke and they must be made much, much tighter. The INS is a cruel joke and must be replaced or vastly reformed. Our whole attitude toward immigration must be altered but that will not happen soon, no matter what the Bush administration attempts to do. I believe that only one or two more terrorist acts will do that. This is still a democracy. When enough people are killed and the public rises up and slaps the faces of liberal senators and tells the media to go to hell when they talk about not profiling and tolerance for Muslim Arabs and so on, when we get serious about having tight borders again and realize that the people pouring across them now are not our friends in any way, then we'll get the kind of draconian actions you long for.
You may not like them once you have them and you still won't be 'secure' as you may assume you would be but after enough death and destruction you'll see a change, not before.
By the way, no need to apologize for anything and no one thinks you hate anyone but a zealous, one-note tone and blaming a President for not doing more when he's done plenty already that you ignore and wave away as nothing is not useful. You have an important issue to push, you want to make your point but you don't seem to be offer anything other than a one-note anti-Bush 'the sky is falling' position.
O.K., but other than attracting the real Bush-haters who just use your screeds as a jumping off point for another round of bashing, I don't see the point in saying the same thing over and over and dismissing those who see a little more being done than you'll admit.
I understand your point, but maybe these people were just choosing the less painful death, in their minds. Or maybe they thought jumping would be their only chance at survival - or prolong life for a few more moments and allow them to take a few last breaths of air. We can't understand why they did this, but I don't think it was because of a lack of faith in God. God does not guarantee our safety, but he does guarantee He will be with us if we ask.
It is the government and their, "Our diversity is our strength" moronic nonchalance about our future, that has made us unsafe. I expect them to fix it.
You say we have defeated Al Quada when all that actually happed is that they were captured then released to reform later. And they will reform later even if it is 20 years from now.
You say we have nailed their bank accounts? Article after article says we didn't even make a dent because of the special way they use the banking system, even Ben Ladin laughed about it.
Secure cock pit doors? How about a gun in the cockpit? No real man is going to sit inside a cock pit and listen to one stewardess after another beg for their lives as each one has their throats cut to the point of decapitation.
Homeland Security? It's function, so far, entails the most rediculous insult to the senses so far. To quote Bush, "You wanna fight terrorism? Find someone to help, teach a child to read." (gag) I guess if we are really, really, sweet to them they won't kill us.
Sure, some terrorist plots have been foiled, some people arrested that eventually some judge is going to demand released. Meanwhile, like I said, 50,000 more visas have been issued to terrorist nations just since 9-11, we don't know who is coming, where they are going, how to track them, or what their intentions are.
I don't see any real steps taken other than to insure the safety and protection of muslim terrorists and their supporters in this country via hate crimes legislation and terrorism laws. Those are da facts, not just my little opinion. All that is really being done is the government placing a false petina of action, to cover their inaction, on a situtation they seem to be happy to promote in order to keep those borders open. Logic stands alone, and mostly so do those that uphold it as a standard.
Thank you for a considerate, polite and understanding reply. I agree with what you say, and I don't pretend to know what was going on in their heart and head at that time, I just know what I hope would be in my heart and head if I were there.
First, I never put any words in your mouth, so this is the second time I have had to refute a false statement by you (the first being your attribution of words to me that I never expressly attributed to anyone but you, much less those poor people trapped in a burning sky-scraper who you continue to insist "chose" to jump after clinging to a black-smoke filled windowframes for untold minutes as the smoke and flame burn their backs and hands and feet and lungs and skin).
Second, your pathetic attempts to repeatedly second-guess the events that these poor, now-deceased souls went through are disgusting. You obviously have little rational capacity for thought because you REPEATEDLY fail to see the absurdity of your arguments, your point of view, and your blathering statements on this forum. Virtually everyone on this thread is sick of you and your INANITY (look it up). To believe that these people jumped out of a 110-story burning building because they "chose to" demonstrates on its face the absurdity of your views.
Third, let me try once again (third time is the charm). PLEASE GO AWAY. Thank you.
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