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To: George W. Bush
Wesley upheld the central tenet of the Reformation: justification by faith.

Duh. Wesley (and other non-Calvinist evangelicals) never have had any hesitation with 'justification by faith'. Their problem has always been with the Calvinist construct which purports to limit 'justification by faith' to the Calvinists -- and, by the way, to preclude it for the vast majority of mankind.

Just so lurkers here might have one simple explanation of what all this Calvinist recrimination is directed upon, here it is. Evangelical Christians believe that sin afflicts every man, but that God sent His Son, Jesus, as a remedy. Not a remedy for some who belong to some single human organization or to some few selected before the foundation of the world, but to all who will believe on His Son. This is THE central point: Christ died for all.

In doing this, He (God) made sure that He gave each man just a sufficient amount of grace (theologians call it 'pre-venient grace', i.e. 'going-before' grace) so that each man would have no excuse for not accepting His Son.

Thus, no man can blame his eternal fate on his surroundings, his parentage, his 'tough breaks' in life or (unless he is a Calvinist) God.

This doesn't mean that the man who accepts Christ has 'earned' his salvation, for his decision of the will adds no 'weight' to eternal balance scales whatsoever. That was all done by God in the death of His Son.

But it does mean that no man has an excuse. None of this "I must have been one of those damned from the foundation of the world. I just never got a break." That bitter pill of Calvinism is wrong and an invention of a man (a very intelligent and well-meaning 16th century man, but a man nonetheless).

Every man has this choice -- and will be held accountable -- for it. Choose Christ and live or refuse Him and die. Is that an important decision? None bigger.

This is 'justification by faith'. It is the "faith" of the believer that triggers God's provision of His 'justification'. And it is His Will -- He predestined it -- that all who will believe in His Son shall not perish but shall have eternal life.

Now, the Calvinist's little intellectual construct takes that away and says that God decided before the foundation of the world that a certain few would be saved (they call them "the elect") and everyone else was damned ("the reprobates"). No choice, no decision, no faith (except rote 'faith' -- see below). Oh, (they say) it may look like people are being given a choice and it may look like they are deciding for Christ, but that is all play-acting, not reality. In reality it was all decided before the foundation of the world and those seated comfortably in Calvinist churches were the winners of the eternal lottery. What we see is just people going through motions over which they do not have (and have never had) any control at all. It is just actors reading pre-scripted lines which they can't change.

Oh, did you have a baby or young child who died or a retarded son or daughter who died? Too bad, his or her chances were also determined in the eternal lottery and, while it is possible that they were among the small group of winners, the odds are definitely against them. Hell fire awaits.

All of this perversity in the Calvinist construct is 'necessary' (according to its proponents) so as to insure God's 'sovereignty'. See, if He had to wait for puny little men to decide whether to accept Christ or not, He wouldn't be sufficiently 'sovereign' (in the view of the construct's proponents).

Over this nifty little intellectual theory, wars have been fought and churches divided and -- worst of all -- non-believers misled to believe that Christ died for some not all.

Why has it persisted? Because it is, in some ways, a 'comfortable' faith. No wrestling with a sin nature yourself, and no concern with the fate of those unbelievers around you. They either won or lost the eternal lottery before the foundation of the world, so whatever happens, happens. Sit back and enjoy the ride.

Oh, and best of all, if you know the secret mysteries of the construct, you are probably a lottery winner. After all God wouldn't waste the knowledge of His secret construct on a 'reprobate' now would He?

It is intellectually satisfying for some. Even reassuring for some. But, the construct is not the Gospel. Here's the Gospel in a few words, "God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

228 posted on 11/01/2001 10:57:07 AM PST by winstonchurchill
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To: winstonchurchill
I didn't propose to debate this matter again. I think we are both quite aware of each other's position. I'd rather read more about Luther nad not hijack this thread.

Nevertheless, your caricature of Calvinism is wildly exaggerated when applied to the vast majority of Calvinists.
229 posted on 11/01/2001 11:07:58 AM PST by George W. Bush
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To: winstonchurchill
"predestination theories which condemn innocents"

None are innocent before a Holy God. All have sinned and come short of the Glory of God.

Romans 9 says

10: And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11: (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

12: It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13: As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14: What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

When Paul was writing this epistle, he knew that there would be those that would view limited atonement and predestination as unfair, hence the question "Is there unrighteousness with God?"

Why else would he bring that question into the discussion?

15: For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16: So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

The predestinarian view is not a Calvinist nor Lutheran view, it is the Biblical view.

The fact of the matter is that all deserve to go to hell. No one is innocent.

230 posted on 11/01/2001 11:49:49 AM PST by zadok
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To: winstonchurchill
Their problem has always been with the Calvinist construct which purports to limit 'justification by faith' to the Calvinists

This is the central problem with your understanding of Calvinist theology. "Limited Atonement" is purported, not "Atonement Limited to Calvinists." When others in this thread say "there are no non-Calvinists in heaven," it is a semantic point to the effect of the following syllogism:

True things will be known to you when you arrive Heaven.
Calvinism is a True thing.
Calvinism will be known to you when you arrive in Heaven.

They are not saying "Only those who believe in Calvinism on Earth will be saved." So if you disagree with what they are saying, argue against the contention that "Calvinism is a True Thing," not against "Only those who believe in Calvinism on Earth will be saved," because then you are only fighting a strawman.

231 posted on 11/01/2001 11:58:21 AM PST by Romestamo
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To: winstonchurchill
It is pure nonsense that Calvinism leads to not wresting with sin. God to a Calvinist church adn you will see that we hate sin more than most Arminians I can think of.

God is God. You may have a problem with that, but I do not. He determines things, not me.

Also, how on Earth do you expect Christ to "die" for all, and yet have God say it is his will to save everyone....when only some come? GOD FAILED AND CHRIST DIED IN VAIN if you are correct. I believe God did not fail. Christ's death was not in vain and the will of God is accomplished ALWAYS. How is it possible that man, loving his sin and TOTALLY UNABLE to love or even understand the things of God, can come to faith in Christ without the Holy Spirit first bringing him? You see, it is not possible for him to understand the Gospel at all. It is not possible for him to come to faith. God has to take the first step. Scripture says it is predestination. The Holy Spirit then converts those who were predestined.

234 posted on 11/01/2001 2:27:20 PM PST by rwfromkansas
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