Posted on 10/29/2001 7:54:47 AM PST by truthandlife
The idea that Christ died FOR our sins, because we were sinful and unrepentant, so that we might share Heaven with the Father, is a concept that confounds and frightens the overly-sophisticated among us.
Like Mr. Pitt's friend said to Elaine on SEINFELD,
"Grace. You either have it or you don't."
On the contrary. I find the concept neither confounding nor frightening.
But on the assumption that it is true, why then would his Father (with whom he is presumably imutably melded) feel compelled to smash innocent-laden airplanes against the sides of buildings, to "teach us a lesson" about our wickedness?
THAT is the confounding and frightening notion.
Bear in mind of course, that it is not ME who asserts such a God... but those claiming to be his followers.
But if God is not in control of evil, then there is something more powerful than God, and that is not true. We simply do not know the heart of God. But through the Bible, we know what he expects of us, and what awaits those who love and obey Him.
I realize it seems presumptuous to label as simplistic your question "how can a loving God allow bad things to happen." But you could read the Bible more. There you'll find that suffering is the natural state of mankind. And those moments of bliss and joy and love are gifts from God and a glimpse of our future alongside Him.
I think the only way a parent could say good-bye to their child, and still be able to live another day, is to believe they will be together again in Paradise.
And you keep answering a totally different question.
To be honest, it's getting old.
If you feel compelled to change the nature of the conversation so as to better frame your response, that's fine. But be advised, that you're not conversing with me when you do that. You're conversing with yourself.
The church has not failed - organized religion has failed - as it should. The doctrines of man has failed. Jesus said the gates of hell shall not prevail against My church. The church, IMHO, is not Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, etc. Jesus' church is the body of believers that are committed to HIM first and foremost. Organized religion of all denominations are full of churchianity, not Christianity. But, in those vast congregations of churchianity, Christianity is alive and well - in some churches more so than others. And, the gates of hell will not prevail against THAT church.
What I believe is that when judgement comes, it begins with the house of God (I think I read that somewhere).
Yes, you are correct. It's in Isaiah but for the life of me I can't find the chapter and verse right now - even with a concordance! If my understanding of Scripture is correct, the Lord will first judge the "shepherds" - the pastors and preachers, then He will judge those that call themselves Christians yet do not live their lives in accordance with the teachings of Christ. Then He will judge the non-believers.
I believe the church in America needs to repent before we can ask non-believers to repent. When the world starts seeing us live right, they may be attracted to the gospel and we may see rightousness grow once again in our nation.
Right on the mark here! The church has to repent and live in righteousness. We have to not only "talk the talk", we have to "walk the walk" every waking minute of our lives. Until we Christians do that, our witness will not and cannot be taken seriously by non-believers. Why would a non-believer believe when she/he hears Christians preaching one thing and doing exactly the opposite? Not gonna happen!
I believe the judgement we should anticipate is judgement and persecution on God's people the church, to wake us up to do our job in this nation we have been entrusted with.
Absolutely! The persecution of the church will test everyone that professes to be a Christian. Those whose hearts and minds are not totally committed to Christ will have to make a choice - Christ above all even if it means immediate death or the wide road. Through this persecution, the true church will grow, the riff-raff will fall away - chosing safety over Liberty in Christ. Jesus' church will become more righteous - walking the walk - and it will be a powerful witness to the Lord. This is happening now. People that have been ho-hum about their life in Christ (myself included!) are taking stock and rededicating their lives to Christ. They are turning away from the world and grabbing on to the promises. And their witness is strong - they are bringing people into the Lord's fold. A lot of churches are going through some big changes now - many people are leaving non PC churches in search of those churches that give them a wide berth. The churches that do not accept the PC doctines and compromise are growing by leaps and bounds. I think the TRUE church is being prepared now for what is to come. When that time comes, our witness will be powerful and a great many non-believers will believe.
That is why I reject the idea that the WTC was a judgement from God on our nation.
I am not wise enough to figure out if the WTC was a judgement or not. Some days I think it is, other days I ask the same questions as OWK and others and totally reject that is was a judgement. I just don't know.
I do know that God is Sovereign and can do anything He determines to do in order to accomplish His purpose - the rest I have yet to figure out.
Exactly....it's not the act that is evil, but the motive behind the act.
I disagree. God can and does allow evil to happen. Especially when trying to turn people back to him.
A god who didn't "correct" his children, would be no different from parents who don't correct their children. I, for one, cannot stand to be around children who have never heard the word "no", and who believe the world revolves around them.
You say your, "God is one who loves us all and and lives in our hearts and does his work through us. His heart is full of love and forgiveness, not filled with rage and hate as your so called 'God' is.
You are correct that is your God and it is a 'false' God one made up in your head and a God that you have chosen to believe. I believe in the God of the Bible and all I can say is I hope you do not perish from this earth without knowing the "way, the truth, and the life" because we all face the judgment seat of Christ one day. Hell is a real place and I hope you do not have to spend it there because you have decided to follow your own so called "god."
God created everything...including evil-doing Muslims, the WTC, and every child, past, present and yet-to-be-born. God knows tomorrow, as well as today and yesterday.
You obvioulsy want to elicit the statement "God crashed the planes into the WTC and killed 5,000 people." Strictly speaking, if God created everything and knows everything because he is God, then he knows what's going to happen tomorrow. If tomorrow's actions are already known to God, there is only one course for the future.
That being said, God did not crash the planes into the WTC. But God created the evil that did do it. And He watched while the planes burst into a flaming hell-storm and bodies fell to the pavement. He heard their cries and saw their suffering. He determined some would live and some would die. And we struggle to understand and accept.
But He provides the comfort of irresistible Grace, knowing life to be more than the "now" which consumes us.
In the same way that President Bush called this moment in time an "opportunity" for our nation, even though he is repulsed by the evil--I believe this moment in time provides an opportunity for God's people to first seach our own hearts, then help people who are suddenly finding themselves open to spiritual things and a re-examination of their own values to find the right way.
Yep, you are right on with this. I know that I have certainly been re-examining my own life, values and such, as are many others I know.
Actually, the very thing you describe is the very thing which motivated Satan and his followers in their act of rebellion. The vanity and pride of self-worship. The very thing which lets you know which side of the equation LIBERALS fall out on, and hence why they are so virulently opposed to a serious and humble relationship with God, and his Son.
It clearly DOES have you confounded. You don't understand, and are unwilling. E.g., let's examine your continuing, incessant and indeed, DISHONEST regurgitations of the following point you make (so unerringly exemplary of a LIBERAL):
"why then would his Father (with whom he is presumably imutably melded) feel compelled to smash innocent-laden airplanes against the sides of buildings, to "teach us a lesson" about our wickedness?
Not a single person on this thread, or in public, nor in private has intimated that God 'felt compelled to smash innocent-laden airplanes against the sides of buildings'...but you keep saying this same basic defamatory accusation (against both God and Believers) as if by repetition you will make it true. Just like the Marxists with their BIG LIE methodology. You claim that we make a distinction without a difference when the distinction is extremely clear to those WILLING to hear...he merely STOPPED supernaturally protecting us from THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN HOWLING AND SLAVERING TO DO THIS FOR DECADES.
God is not responsible for our tragedy. Our enemies are the ones who are responsible, and to the extent we have spurned His Help, unrepentantly unaware that we are his creations ('ala Alan Dershowitz), and forgetting we are his to serve Him(not vice-versa) and to love him by being his friends (to put this in a symbolic relationship which you might better understand)...then yes, we are also to blame FOR SENDING GOD AWAY.
How many of us even now are trusting SOLELY in munitions and political games to prevail here? How many are fervently PRAYING for help, IF it be his Will, for our nation in this? How many instead are STILL Giving him the busy signal, the cold shoulder, and the come-back later 'inconvenient season' excuse??? Not to dispute anyone's sincerity, but I have to ask: How many thoughtlessly mouth or write "God Bless America" as if it were a COMMAND we can issue to God? --Skipping the "May" God part. Let us pray it is not that way, and that their hearts are right.
We are indebted to God and to the Watchmen. Ezekiel 33:9
Dei Donum.
I don't think this terrorist act was God's will. This was an act perpetrated by evil men.
You are correct that is your God and it is a 'false' God one made up in your head and a God that you have chosen to believe. I believe in the God of the Bible and all I can say is I hope you do not perish from this earth without knowing the "way, the truth, and the life" because we all face the judgment seat of Christ one day. Hell is a real place and I hope you do not have to spend it there because you have decided to follow your own so called "god."
I'm glad to see that your so wise (not to mention so damn self righteous and arrogant) that you can call God (there is only one) who believes in love and forgiveness and mercy to be simply a figment of my imagination. Hopefully, he will have mercy on your soul. One thing I'm sure of though is that the GOD I know is not a MURDERER! If I'm going to Hell (not your decision by the way,only God can judge me)because I believe God is loving, forgiving and merciful, then so be it. I'd rather be there then in your 'Heaven' with the likes of you. PS - What will you do when the 'Rapture' doesn't happen?
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