H.R.3162 PATRIOT ACT{ YOUR NEW- POLICESTATE- LOOK FOR YOUR SELF}

thomas ^ | GOVERNMENT

[freedomnews]

H.R.3162

Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism (USA PATRIOT ACT) Act of 2001

[Protect the Bill of Rights]

PS: You might be able to infer from my nickname that I am a (now retired) Marine, so questioning my patriotism for me questioning this law won't work.

Good One! High five comin' at ya!

[Jolly Rodgers]

I would revoke all visas, except those issued for humanitarian aid or political refuge.

Even those need to be closely considered. Many of the algerian terrorists residing in Canada took advantage of that country's extremely lax refugee rules. Once they are in the country, they simply acquire an alternate identity using new documents and they are home free.

[wcbtinman]

"I can't think of a single one."

Actually, I can. The ESA (Enviromental Species Act) sunset, I think in 1994. In any event, it has not been re-authorized and yet this very act is being enforced against the Klamath farmers today.

So, even if the patriot act sunsets, and in reality very few of the provisions do, the govt will just go right on enforcing them.

[Jolly Rodgers]

Well, looking at your contributions here on this thread it speaks volumes for the size of your mind. I am no Fed Gov lover, I love my country, and when we have foriegners coming to this country and using the freedoms we have to kill us, I think it's time we do something about it. I don't agree with some of this bill, but to sit and do nothing just invites more deadly attacks. These terrorist were using the net to send their messages, they took advantage of our poorly enforced immigration laws, and they murdered 5000 innocent people. What would you suggest we do? or will you just flame away

Nice strawman. I don't see any of the people who are opposed to this legislation recommending that we sit and do nothing. As a matter of fact, there have been plenty of calls to deal with the pool of non-citizens who are most likely to be terrorists -- citizens of muslim countries who entered the US on visas. Those visas can be cancelled by the Secretary of State without cause and that would violate the rights of not one single person.

[monkeywrench]

Geesh. Another one of you for the pro govt. expansion of powers, anti-liberty crowd. Americans have died fighting to protect our freedoms from power grabs like you support.Why don't you start an anti liberty-big gov. forum to spew your crap?

[muawiyah]

One of the reasons we have government is "to provide for the common defense". If you think that is a "sad" ambition for a government, there's really nothing that I would care to discuss with you. Frankly, if it was good enough for the Founding Fathers, it's good enough for me.

[Jolly Rodgers]

Actually, I can. The ESA (Enviromental Species Act) sunset, I think in 1994. In any event, it has not been re-authorized and yet this very act is being enforced against the Klamath farmers today. So, even if the patriot act sunsets, and in reality very few of the provisions do, the govt will just go right on enforcing them.

It has been reauthorized through the budget every single year since it supposedly sunsetted. My point stands. Once the government has its hands on a power, it does not let go.

[Jolly Rodgers]

One of the reasons we have government is "to provide for the common defense". If you think that is a "sad" ambition for a government, there's really nothing that I would care to discuss with you. Frankly, if it was good enough for the Founding Fathers, it's good enough for me.

It is our RIGHTS that they government exists to protect. It is a bit of a stretch to think that the proper way to protect those rights is to become the very agent that abridges them.

[kempo]

Do you not understand we are at war. The thousands that are already dead from this conflict will be nothing compared to what will happen if we continue as before. I'm not saying I like the idea of losing protected rights but before you criticise the actions taken, have an answer to the problem. How would you stop the terrorist?

[wcbtinman]

We basically agree. However, re-authorization of the budget for the act does not a legal (through the legislature) re-authorization make.

In any event, you are correct.

[muawiyah]

"We the People of the United States, in order to......" - That's how the Constitution begins. You know the rest, right? If you don't, try reading the Constitution. Then get back to me on what kind of constitutional amendment would be needed to provide for the common defense, e.g. maybe have a Constitutionally mandated Commander in Chief, maybe a Congress with the power to raise armies and navies, a militia.

I think you are too ignorant of our Constitution to discuss the issues.

[muawiyah]

Clearly you don't know enough about human rights, our form of government, history, or the clear meaning of statements made in the English language for me to have a discussion with you.

[verity]

You have something to hide or you are a fool!

[Jolly Rodgers]

Do you not understand we are at war. The thousands that are already dead from this conflict will be nothing compared to what will happen if we continue as before. I'm not saying I like the idea of losing protected rights but before you criticise the actions taken, have an answer to the problem. How would you stop the terrorist?

First of all, our own government weighed the situation and by their own voice declared that this situation does not warrant invoking a declaration of war. You and I might like to think otherwise, but they made it clear that in the government's eyes, this is NOT a war.

Secondly, there has been post after post recommending actions that could be taken that would violate the rights of no person. Even if it is a declared war, that is no justification for violating rights.

[Native American Female Vet]

"America is at WAR! Those who don't want to make any sacrifices in order to help assure victory in the fight against terrorism are anti-American in my book. They should be deported immediately, or jailed as subversives. Their rhetoric only offers aid and comfort to the enemy."

I have seen you make many remarks on threads about this subject and this comment has made me decide to reply to you even though I have tried to ignore you.

To say that someone who is standing up for their rights is Anti-American is despicable. Shame on you for saying Americans should be jailed or deported because they feel liberty is not something they will give up. Aid and comfort to the enemy my butt.

This is America and you seem to forget the preamble starts with "We the people". You also seem to forget that little thing called the Bill of Rights too.

Ronald Reagan once said:

"Defense is expensive, but freedom is priceless.

Knowledge without action is futile. Action without knowledge is dangerous"

I hope we have once again reminded people that man is not free unless government is limited."

I take that to say To defend America is gonna cost, but it should not be paid for with our freedom. If you know something is wrong you should act and if you act before you know whats up it can hurt and without a limited government we are not free.

[kempo]

Monkey, I'm the most freedom loving guy I know. Let me ask you how would you stop the terrorist? Thousands of our citizens have died and thousands more will die if we do nothing. You've just been elected President, now how are you going to stop this?

[Deanna Knapp]

What makes you think at some point some of the things you do believe won't have to be hidden because the political agenda has changed. The danger is not so much in the bill but as to what they will one day consider terrorism. Will a terrorist be someone who will not bend to political correctness? Won't support and agree to abortion or homosexuality or unity of religion. Who knows, but the seeds of control have long been planted.

[Reagan Man]

Still taking out your frustrations on people who disgaree with you. Aren't you the one who said on another thread two days back:

Do you want me to admit that I'm scared???? Is that what it is? OK, I'm scared. I'm scared for my country, my fellow Americans and the future of my children. I don't want my children to die a horrid death at the hands of some nutcase. If that's paranoid, scared or whatever else then I guess I'm that.
122 posted on 10/25/01 12:53 PM Mountain by LiberteeBell

You still haven't found any courage I see, but you have entered into full panic mode. You're not only acting irrational, illogical and irresponsible, you're being ill-mannered too. My screen name honors a great American, who I personally campaigned for on three different occasions, in 1975, 1981 and 1984. Your personal attacks against my choice of that screen name is utterely ridiculous.

I believe in a smaller federal gov't too, but right now, America is at WAR with international terrorism and that should be the focus of all good patriotic American's. Right now it's my focus.

[wcbtinman]

"How would you stop the terrorist?"

You are beating a dead horse. You know, and so do the rest of us, that there is no stopping a terrorist who is willing to die for his cause. And that is exactly why this new law is dead wrong. It will not stop anything either. But the net result is that our freedoms have just been substantially eroded for a net gain of zero.

Your argument comes from a position of ignorance, and a lack of perspective about recent history.

BTW, there is only one solution for terrorists. Kill them in place. Everytime, all of the time. And don't even start with 'We don't know who they are.'

[choppersrule]

"It is time for the government to get about the business of protecting me....."

if thats what your waiting for take a number and get back in line (its the one next to the govt cheese).
the govt has known since 1995 that there were islamic terrorists plotting to hijack commercial aircraft and crash them into the pentagon and the cia etc.
this govt caught a terrorist IN AUG.2001, at a flight school because his instructors were alarmed that he didnt want to learn how to take off or land. for whatever reason they assumed he wasnt part of a larger plot. maybe a quick check of the rosters for all flight schools in the past year might bring up say ATTA who was on the INTEL watch list (for having taken part in terrorist activity in egypt).
thats not hindsight talking... they already had an terrorist MO spelled out for 5-6 years. but apparently ATTA can enter our country, attend flight schools, and fly back and forth across our country with out it raising any flags.

this is the govt you want to protect you...they cant even decide if the anthrax in dc is high grade or backyard quality (they change their mind on a daily basis).

this govt tries to tell me that when the first case of inhaled anthrax (in the US)in 25 years shows up days after Sept 11th. he probably caught it "from a stream" give me a break.

if your waiting for them to protect you its a long wait. congress and the military will get the first line of defense. its up to us to take care of ourselves. grow a pair will ya.

as for "sunsets" since ive been alive ive never seen the govt give any power back. lets not kid ourselves. its a done deal.

you "seem" to want to be a conservative. wonder how youd feel with all of this constitution medling going on if clinton were calling the shots. you would be lumped in with all those evil conservative extremists. but hey the govt would be protecting you from yourself.