Billy Graham Fulfilling last Prophecy? (posted in Oct., 2001)

It doesn't appear that CCWoody wishes to clarify the situation to the extent of eliminating unrighteousness from God's doing and God's hand.

You have already said I could take as much time as I need. However, you really need to stop posting for a while and consider that you have already called something "morally evil" that the Bible ultimately attributes to God.

This is interesting, I had no idea world leaders were listening though.

I have to disagree with you, Goldhammer. This is preaching the Gospel:

"God cares for us, whatever our ethnic, religious or political background may be.

The Bible says that He’s "the God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our troubles."

We've always needed God from the very beginning of this nation, but today we need Him especially.

we need the help of the Spirit of God. The Bible's words are our hope: "God is our refuge and strength, an ever present help in trouble. Therefore we will not fear, though the earth give way and the mountains fall into the heart of the sea" (Psalm 46:1,2, NIV).

I have to accept, by faith, that God is sovereign, and He’s a God of love and mercy and compassion in the midst of suffering.

The Old Testament prophet Jeremiah said, "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?" He asked that question, "Who can understand it?" And that’s one reason we each need God in our lives.

As a Christian, I have hope, not just for this life, but for heaven and the life to come.

For the Christian, I'm speaking for the Christian now, the Cross tells us that God understands our sin and our suffering, for He took upon Himself in the person of Jesus Christ our sins and our suffering. And from the Cross, God declares, "I love you. I know the heartaches and the sorrows and the pains that you feel. But I love you."

The story does not end with the Cross, for Easter points us beyond the tragedy of the Cross to the empty tomb. It tells us that there is hope for eternal life, for Christ has conquered evil and death, and hell. Yes, there is hope.

My prayer today is that we will feel the loving arms of God wrapped around us, and will know in our hearts that He will never forsake us as we trust in Him. "

My 23 years in the RC Church left me confused about the doctrine of salvation by grace. I didn't know where faith in Christ's crucifixion and resurrection ended and the requirements of the church began. The timetables for taking communion, what to eat and when, the classification and rating of various sins, changes in doctrine and pronouncements of infallibility... Week after week my priest gave shallow interpretations of God's Word and focused most of the homily on appeals to give more money. From the Catholic Church I came to appreciate God's awesome greatness, but I never was introduced to gift of grace not linked to works (Gal 4:9). I never had a personal relationship with Jesus Christ until years later.

So many of us with the same story..thank you for your testimony..It was 33 years for me. On that day I asked God who Jesus was....years of Catholic education but I never seen my sin.I never understood how God saw me,what a bunch of filthy rags my life and my works are. I did not know my Savior.....

Lots of Laws..Lots of rules but no Grace....Amazing Grace how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me..I once was lost but now am found,was blind but now I see..

God bless you ...I wonder how many understand your FR name?

But, there is also hope for the future because of God's promises. As a Christian, I have hope, not just for this life, but for heaven and the life to come. And many of those people who died this past week are in heaven right now, and they wouldn't want to come back. It's so glorious and so wonderful. And that's the hope for all of us who put our faith in God. I pray that you will have this hope in your heart.

At least he didnt offer the PC "everyone is in heaven",that took some amount of courage..but I have to agree with Goldhammer,the gospel was not preached. It was a very nice talk..but it did not address the gospel of Jesus Christ..

The Gospel

God does not explain it all. The bible is a work of fiction. And most importantly followers of God do not know it all.

Well, you seem like one mixed-up dude, here..., but let's give it a shot, anyway... You said, originally --

have you looked at the situation and taken god OUT of the equation? Or do you view everything through a book of fiction?

And having no idea what you were talking about, I said --

So, not having any earthly idea what you're saying, and since I'm not going to go on drugs to try and understand what you're saying -- I'd say to just read the Bible and see what God says. He explains it all.

So, now you say --

God does not explain it all. The bible is a work of fiction. And most importantly followers of God do not know it all.

And here's where it seems to get more confusing (by the moment), when we look back at your original statement, in addition to your follow-up.

Okay, you say, first of all, "God does not explain it all.". Now, initially that statement seems to presume (on your behalf) that there is a God in the first place. That's certainly a good position to start from. I would especially say so, since God says that He put that knowledge of Himself in everyone. Thus, at that beginning point -- so far so good.

But, then -- here is where it gets confusing. You say, next -- "The bible is a work of fiction." Okay, so we're to presume that there is a God (from your statement) but that the Bible is not anything from God (otherwise you would not say it's a work of fiction).

That is..., unless you're also presuming that God actually created that very "work of fiction" -- in which case -- the whole thing (that you said) would be getting more confusing by the second. But, I'm guessing you're not saying that.

So, now by "statement 2" -- we have a God, but we have no "Bible" from God. That's what I've gotten so far.

BUT..., you see..., when I look back at your first statement, you ask if I have "taken god OUT of the equation". Now, that's puzzling, in conjunction with the fact that you seem to say that there is a God in the first place. Now, I'm wondering -- if there is a God -- why would someone want to take God "out of the equation". It would seem all the more reason to include Him in the equation -- rather than take him out. Thus, you see how these statements are showing me the signs of "one mixed up dude".

But, continuing -- anyway -- and "slogging" through it all -- we come to the third statement of -- "And most importantly followers of God do not know it all." Now, it's getting really, really confusing at this point. The reason why?

You're saying that there exists a God, and apparently that this God has not spoken to us through the Bible (hence your statement that it's a work of fiction), and that the "followers of God do not know it all". You see..., at this point, I'm wondering with your scheme of things how the "followers" even know that they are "following God" -- if they have a "work of fiction". That would be quite a feat to be a "follower of God" and not even know the first thing about Him. And if we have nothing at all from Him then He's quite a demanding God, in that He expects us to "beat our way up to Him" to a place where no one has any knowledge of (since He has not told us, you see...)

But, you can't be that mixed up and confused -- so I'm presuming that there is some "other way" that you know about that these "followers" are supposed to "know something" about God.

HOWEVER, now I'm wondering how. And in fact, I'm wondering how these "followers" are supposed to know the least little thing -- much less "it all". I mean, does He talk to them some way? Or maybe there's another "book" that you're referring to? Or perhaps you're thinking that He uses ESP? Or does everyone just get together in a seance and chant? You'll have to "enlighten me" on that point.

And so, you've really got me confused about your view of God and the universe and people. I would sure like to hear how those "followers" (which you apparently admit are there, since you mention them) are even supposed to know the "first thing" about God -- in your scheme of things.

And it's still puzzling why you would maintain taking God out of the situation, if you know He's there. Here you've got a "key player" in the universe -- and you're saying to simply "ignore Him."

This will be interesting to hear how this god of yours works. He sure doesn't work the way the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob works. That's for sure. But, then again -- that may be the whole problem -- you're dealing with a different god (as are the Islamics and others).

This should be an enlightening response to all these questions.

Out of your own mouth I will prove you wrong and show that it is you and all your commentators who are not understanding "evil" and denying the Sovereignty of God. - CCWoody

I am the LORD, and there is none else; there is no God besides Me. I girded thee, though thou hast not known Me, that they may know from the rising of the sun and from the west that there is none besides Me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I, the LORD, do all these things.
"Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness; let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together. I, the LORD, have created it.
"Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, `What makest thou?' or thy work, `He hath no hands'?

If I sent you a letter with a substance that caused you to get sick, would I be doing something evil? It is my intent to cause you pain. I do this with premeditation. What would you call this, an evil act or a calamity that I caused? – CCWoody

That would be a moral evil. You see, as a person (and according to what Romans says [for example 3:23]), you do not have the same attributes as God does. In your case, as a person who needs Salvation, you are capable of committing "moral evil" -- which is unrighteousness. At the same time, you have the ability to cause calamity (of the same type that God does, on the one hand), in terms of not being unrighteous -- or, on the other hand -- you have the ability to commit evil acts of the morally depraved kind, as opposed to calamity. You can do either. God cannot. – Star Traveler

You have given out some pretty good advice in that we should look to see what Job had to say about it. However, you are looking at the wrong end of the book:

Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.
And the LORD said unto Satan, "From whence comest thou?" And Satan answered the LORD and said, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down upon it."
And the LORD said unto Satan, "Hast thou considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one who feareth God and escheweth evil? And still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst Me against him to destroy him without cause."
And Satan answered the LORD and said, "Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.
But put forth Thine hand now and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse Thee to Thy face!"
And the LORD said unto Satan, "Behold, he is in thine hand; only spare his life."
So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.
And he took him a potsherd with which to scrape himself, and he sat down among the ashes.
Then said his wife unto him, "Dost thou still retain thine integrity? Curse God, and die!"
But he said unto her, "Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? Shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?" In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Notice that it is God who says that He moved against Job in chapter 1. And Satan does not attempt to correct Him, but responds by asking God to stretch for His hand and harm his bone and flesh. Now, you will surely say as God says that He has given Satan authority to harm Job. And I would not object. However, this does not change the fact that both God and Satan credit Him as the ultimate source of Job’s problems.

And after Satan smote Job, it is Job himself who responds by crediting God as the ultimate source of all the evil that has befallen him. And yet in all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Note that the word sore is really the Hebrew word ra` {rah} and is the exact word of controversy between you and the Bible. This is also the exact same word translated evil (probably adversity in your Bible) in Job’s statement. You have already said that this should be translated as "morally evil" from my letter example above.

Conclusion: Your position is overthrown.

Now, the interesting thing here is that I could stop, having made my point that even though you have spent a lot of time producing commentaries and making posting, you really naturally believe as I do and just as God says: I make peace, and create evil. But, I thought we would look at Billy Graham’s comments:

The Bible says that God is not the author of evil. It speaks of evil as a "mystery." In 2 Thessalonians 2:7 it talks about the mystery of iniquity. The Old Testament prophet Jeremiah said, "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?" He asked that question, "Who can understand it?" And that’s one reason we each need God in our lives.

Sometimes "sound bites" won't cut it! – Jerry_M

I think that Jerry has pegged what Billy Graham said pretty well. In the sense that Dr. Graham has chosen to use the word, God is indeed not the author of evil. Dr. Graham has chosen to define the word evil as unrighteousness; as have you. However, what God is talking about in Isaiah 45 is not unrighteousness. And, 2 Thessalonians is not talking about the same thing as Isaiah 45. The mystery of iniquity in 2 Thessalonians is talking about something very specific:

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and by our gathering together unto Him, that ye be not soon shaken in mind or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as if from us that the Day of Christ is at hand.
Let no man deceive you by any means, for that Day shall not come, unless there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sitteth as God in the temple of God, showing himself to be God.
Remember ye not that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth, that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now holdeth back will hold him back, until he is taken out of the way.
And then shall that wicked one be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming--even him, whose coming is according to the working of Satan, with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all the deceit of unrighteousness in those who perish, because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie, that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren, beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you for salvation, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, whereunto He called you by our Gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold to the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word or our epistle. Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and God even our Father, who hath loved us and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work.

Jerry, this is a very interesting passage. God shall send a strong delusion upon those who will be perishing in this time so that they will believe the lie. And this passage also affirms that we as saints are to always give thanks because God chose us in the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit. Says a lot about some of our recent discussions with the Wesleyan group.

Thanks for the flag Woody...good post....

Funny thing happened at my "Wesleyan"type Church tonight.My Pastor played a tape on the history of Halloween and a spiritual response to it.The speaker on the tape said "Satan is a tool in the hand of God"..then went on to say "God uses him" to achieve his purpose..and cited the crucifixion as an example .My pastor nodded his head and did not attempt to correct it

Now it seems to me that is applicible to this discussion..

You wrote:

No atmosphere (heavens), no elements, no earth.
Gone, burnt up, incinerated.
No one is coming back. Nothing to come back to.
When He comes, everyone will be leaving. Either with Him or away from Him.

How about these verses:

Genesis 9:16 "And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth."

Psalms 104:1-5 "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great . . . Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever."

Ecclesiastes 1:4 "One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever."

John 3:17 "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world . . ."

Revelation 11:15 "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

Revelation 19:15 "And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron..."

Revelation 21:3 "And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God."

Revelation 21:24-26 "And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it [the Holy City]: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it."
(note there are still nations, and there are still kings, after the judgement.)

Revelation 22:2 "In the midst of the street of it [the Holy City], and on either side of the river [river of water of life], was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations." (note again there are still nations, and they are healed.)"

Matthew 24:42-51: "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come"

How about knowing the day or the week the Lord is coming? Is that possible?

bttt

"500 years"

Mmmmm? I don't think so! There is also the scripture which says the last generation will be "the generation that sees the fig tree bloom"; the fig tree is Israel. Israel bloomed in 1948. My generation is the last!

Isaiah 17:1 it says, "The burden of Damascus. It has been taken away from being a city, it has become a ruinous heap." Damascus is a 2000 year old city - so that scripture is still to be fulfilled.

Also, Damascus is where Arafat has his headquarters.

Also, Damascus has built a moat around the city (according to Jersalem Post) and inside the moat are skud missles aimed at Israel.

Now, connect the dots ... Syria sends missles raining down on Israel, and POW, Israel levels Damascus! Interesting huh??

There's more, but I don't want to bog you down now - just understand this; there is no way the world can last another 500 years - no way!!

There's more, but I don't want to bog you down now - just understand this; there is no way the world can last another 500 years - no way!!

Matthew 24:42-51: "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come" YOU WILL NOT KNOW when the end is going to come. That means that YOU WILL NOT KNOW. It does not mean that if you study the bible really hard that you will know. It does not mean that if you are a good Christian that you will know. YOU WILL NOT KNOW. Period. To try to figure it out means that you believe the lord to be a liar. This is a pretty simple concept, yet the amount of time spent by people trying to figure it out is considerable.

In the Hoplite wars the wise sages informed Athens commander that the eclipse was a bad omen to move,they stayed 3 weeks later they were slaughtered by the spartans,one Roman legionaire records the druids in front of the celts and how their eccentric performance was disturbing the troops until he rallied them pressed forward and slaughtered the lot,point being we've had 2 world conflagrations and no-ones ended up on fluffy clouds,historically Preachers advice and war don't mix and the results have always been less than auspicious, Ill listen to the joint chiefs to see where we're at sorry.

The only way to get familiar with Billy Graham is to pick up one of his numerous books. His wife grew up in China as her parents were missionaries. He has been evangelizing and traveling his entire life and does not have a physical church that I am aware of. He fills stadiums night after night. Dubya became born again after Graham visited the Bush family and they hit if off. We could use more Billy Graham's in this world.