The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
TNS Archives

[hopefulpilgrim]

Yes they had the HS enlightening them but, what is your point? If not that we are all given the HS, in infallibility.

Of course this is NOT my point. My point was that that particular verse doesn't say what [apparently] most catholics [and a lot of protestants] THINK it says. It has to do with how Scripture comes to us---God's word penned through the prophets. What they wrote was not their own interpretation of God's Word. I wanted to make that point because I get tired of people using that verse incorrectly. Find a different verse to prove YOUR point (that no one can understand the Word of God without a magic sternum to interpret for them); but STOP twisting 2 Peter 2:21.

[hopefulpilgrim]

8^ D

[hopefulpilgrim]

I wrote: Anyone want to tell how we know if/when the Holy Spirit will illumine our minds to correctly comprehend Scripture?

You wrote: When we accept His will and die to ourselves? If I, in a state of humility, don't belive I'm capable of understanding Scripture on my own, could that be an indication of the HS illuminating my mind?

Could be, but I wasn't asking about His illuminating our minds with just any truth---I was asking specifically how the Holy Spirit illumines our minds to correctly understand the Word of God. What does Scripture say about understanding Scripture? Well, here's one to start with:

Psalm 119:18 "Open my eyes, that I may behold wondrous things from Thy law."

[Hint: You will see a lot about this in Psalm 119.]

[Havoc]

Are statues of Jesus idols?

A better question is, Given the commandment, how is a statue of Jesus not an idol? (hint, it is one).

[Havoc]

For not listening to him anymore you sure do respond to him alot.

He can't help it. LOL. He's gotta keep his number of posts up to look important for later. LOL. It's not what you say that counts or if you've really said anything - it's how many posts you've had that really counts. rofl.

[Havoc]

except when he violated Old Covenant Law

Begging to differ, God sent them to him - he did not go, of himself, and attempt to talk to Moses and Elias. You need to learn to read. You also need to learn about spiritual things.

[Havoc]

. He doesn't care if we have a picture of him or his mom in our yard. It's what's inside that counts.

Oh really? When did the 10 commandments get thrown out? I wonder. This is awful big news to the Lord, I'm sure.

[Pelayo]

I wanted to make that point because I get tired of people using that verse incorrectly. Find a different verse to prove YOUR point (that no one can understand the Word of God without a magic sternum to interpret for them); but STOP twisting 2 Peter (1):21.

Perhaps you need to read it again, then explain why we Catholics, and many Proddies too, see it as a explanation of why we can't interpret it on a whim...

"19 And we have the prophetic word made more sure. You will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, 21 because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God." RSV

As you can see V21 he does indeed say that the authors of the OT were inspired infallibly, but why? To make his argument that we ourselves can't interpret it on our own.

[OLD REGGIE]

REGGIE: "And you, as an individual, is(sic) a cipher, zero, nothing, parrot, unthinking robot!"

SD: "God bless you too!."

Let me apologize for that outburst. Though I meant something like that, at some level, there was no excuse for me to reply to you in that manner. My tongue (typing) got ahead of my brain. Believe me, I don't think of you that way, (some maybe) but not you. Please forgive,

Reggie

[malakhi]

I dont' think I like this new format. When this thread is 10,000 posts long how in the world do you quickly get to post number 5221?

Go to the box in your browser that shows the URL. It will read something like:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/548277/posts?q=1&&page=581

Delete the 581 at the end and replace it with:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/548277/posts?page=586#586

This will take you to that exact reply #. If you have your preferences set for 20 replies per page, you could also write it as:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/548277/posts?page=581

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/548277/posts?page=5221

That will take you to the top of the page that has that reply # and the next 20 replies. (Obviously you would enter numbers in multiples of 20. If you have your preferences set for 50, then use multiples of 50).

[OLD REGGIE]

So better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven? We need a new line for Proddies, how about "better to be my own master than be ordered to go to Heaven!"

Thank you.

[Pelayo]

Thank you.

Don'tcha mean "God Bless you"?

BTW, God Bless you too.

[Havoc]

How about you researching the word. It is from nekron manteia: dead oracle. The root mancy deals only with divination or oracles. The context also shows that this is the correct reading. All of the other practices condemned in the chapter involve vain attempts to divine the future or magically control it. Only one mentions the dead.

I have researched the word. I've also researched the topic. That's how I know the dictionary meaning that you posted is, to say the least, incomplete. A number of the arts listed in the OT have to do with communing with the dead. And they are all forbidden. How can you be christian and not know the law? How is it that a Jew knows these things and you don't? Where's Angelo.

[al_c]

I was in a face-to-face today and the discussion involved the efficaciousness of singing "God Bless America" if the singers were aware of their sins and had no intention of changing their behaviors but did possess a sincere desire that God bless and protect the nation as well as themselves.

I thought the benefit of singing that song was the chance that people would think about the meaning of the words they were singing and why they were singing it and recognize that maybe it might take more than words and volume to obtain their desires. I would hope reflection would lead them to convert,repent,pray and fast.

Another person thought it was almost an insult to call on God while refusing to obey His commandments and a third person was sure that Americans were good people and had been attacked by evil-doers,consequently God would grant the request to bless the country. What do you all think?

We're all sinful people. We sin every day. If God was to wait until we were perfect, prayers would never be answered. Sure, we do need to repent for our sins and a true repentant heart is greatly blessed by our Lord, but He still hears and answers the prayers of the sinners.

To ALL:

Good morning, everybody! I don't know what the weather is like where any of you live, but it has been absolutely beautiful here in Texas ... hope y'all are having the same!

Thursday, October 18, 2001
Saint Luke, evangelist - Feast

First Reading: Responsorial Psalm: Gospel:

Second Timothy 4:9-17 Psalms 145:10-13, 17-18 Luke 10:1-9 The saints have always been the source and origin of renewal in the most difficult moments in the Church's history.  -- Pope John Paul II

And, as usual, from wau.org ...

When a poor, uneducated fisherman leaves everything to follow a teacher with a captivating message, we admire his courage. But when an educated and successful doctor burns his bridges, admiration turns to wonder: Whatever motivated him to make such a sacrifice?

Luke, traditionally seen as the author of the Third Gospel and the Book of Acts, was quite an accomplished, successful man. Scripture indicates that he was a physician and a Gentile by birth (2 Timothy 4:11,14). One tradition holds that Luke was also a painter (which makes him the patron saint of both doctors and artists), that he never married, and that he died, full of the Holy Spirit, at age eighty-four.

This extremely talented and probably well-off man could have spent life enjoying the many pleasures that come with success. Instead, Luke chose the rigors of traveling with Paul and facing all the dangers of a missionary life. He even accompanied Paul to Rome and stayed with him during his captivity. Such sturdy faithfulness must have been a great comfort for Paul.

What attracted Luke to such a life? Jesus! He had seized Luke's heart, and Luke couldn't help but follow wherever he led. As Jesus captures our hearts, we too will experience what Luke did--the overflowing love of God, and this love will change our hearts. We will no longer want to live just for ourselves, but for Jesus. We will want to be faithful to his word, no matter what. We will long for his kingdom, and we will dedicate ourselves to spreading that kingdom.

Luke was filled with Jesus' love and compassion, and he reflected these attributes in his gospel. For example, he's the only one who tells us about Jesus' mercy to the outcast tax collector Zacchaeus (Luke 19:1-10). He's the only one who tells us about the prodigal son whose father was so extravagant in his love (15:11-32). We read these stories and come away reassured: "I'm precious to Jesus! I'm worth everything to him!" And, we come away saying, "Jesus, you're worth everything! No sacrifice is too great to be with you!"

"Holy Spirit, flood me with a deeper revelation of Jesus as Savior, Lord, Brother, Friend. Open my eyes to Jesus present in those around me, in your word, in the Eucharist, and in my times of prayer."

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Have a great day, everyone!

[malakhi]

The Rabbis met at Jamnia in about 90 A.D. and retranslated the O.T., throwing out the deuterocannonicals .

Wrong, wrong, wrong. They acknowledged the authority of the original Hebrew text over the Greek translation. There was no "retranslation" involved. There were a number of reasons why the deuterocanonical books were rejected: they were written late, they were not written in Hebrew, and were not in common use in the Jewish communities in Israel.

[OLD REGGIE]

And how did you come to the conclusion that you--and you alone--are competent to make judgements of this sort, knowing, as I suppose you know, about the tumult, the bloodshed caused by the decision of the Reformers simply to ignore 1500 years of Church history and to reconstruct Christian doctrine on the basis of the Scripture alone. They ar least did not have hindsight to show them the consequences of their speculations.

------------------------------------------------------------

"...the bloodshed caused by the decision of the Reformers simply to ignore 1500 years of Church history and to reconstruct Christian doctrine on the basis of the Scripture alone."

Very interesting. I suppose there was no bloodshed, no executions, deaths, murders, of "heretics" in the first 1,500 years? The sole reason for the Reformation was based on "Scripture Alone"? No bloodshed was caused as a result of the "Counter Reformation"?

And just where did you learn your history?
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[SoothingDave]

They have rituals because they don't know the authority of the Lord. If you can't do what you've set out to do, you might as well make it look good. I know the authority of the Lord and I have it working in my life. Waving crosses, lighting candles and burning incense doesn't bother the Devil. Nor do pious Latin incantations - witches and satanists do the same things to draw demons, not to get rid of them. But even they are forced to recognize the authority of a Jesus in a Christian with faith in the Lord who knows the scripture and functions in obedience to God.

Then how come every scary movie with vampires or demons possessing someone (like the movie I watched last night) has people in trouble with the devil and they always want a priest? Huh?

I've seen a lot of such movies and never, never has one person ever shouted out "get me a good Bible-based non-denominationl preacher." No, it's always priests and Holy Water and Crosses. :-)

Seriously though, possession is real and so is exorcism. And it is, of course, the power and faith in Christ of the exorcist that does the job. But the holy items help. They are battle tested. The movie "The Exorcist" was based on the story of a little boy in Maryland. His parents took him to see his pastor, a Lutheran. The pastor told the family "better go to the Catholics, they know how to deal with this."

SD

[al_c]

RE:Your #807

Wow! You really are bitter towards the Catholic Church, aren't you?

BTW ... in reply to your connection of the RCC and Peter. I was listening to a Christian radio program this morning on the way to work and since there are no Catholic radio stations here (yet), you can probably guess the denomination (remember ... I'm in the Bible-belt). Want to know who the host was talking about (and, boy, was he going on and on about this person)? Peter. Even called him "the rock" a few times. I guess the RCC isn't the only group that recognizes Peter for who he was.

[SoothingDave]

The comparison of Fundamentalism to Gnosticism "works" on a number of levels.

1) It establishes that the speaker is an expert on both Fundamentalism and obscure things like Gnosticism

This is a little cynical, bass. Yes it does establish that the speaker has some knowledge of past heresies in church history. Since accurate history is so sorely lacking in most fundmentalists it is a good point.

2) It compares the enemy (Protestantism) to a group all acknowledge as heretics (even Fundamentalists, hmmm)

You haven't met the Fundamentalists I have here then? Most will not acknowledge proven heresies as such, preferring to think of them only as cudgels Catholics use to beat people with. They usually refuse to enter into the theoretical discussion needed to understand such heresies. Some are truly "agnostic" about such issues, others just don't wish to agree with Catholic terminology. Consider how hard it is to get fundamentalists to answer questions like "is Jesus God?"

3) It points out the role of the doctrine of the Catholic church and its infinite superiority as it beat back the gnostics once and will do it again

I think you mean this cynically, but you are correct nonetheless. Do you not agree that many today hold the same position as heretics of old?

SD