Posted on 10/15/2001 6:54:40 AM PDT by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
What is the Catholic Church to tell the Mormons that Joseph Smith was not speaking the word of God?
I think we have learned enough that it is a matter of everyone chosing sides, defending them and seeing how it turns out in the end.
ROFLOL! Well, we all have our moments of weakness. I would've done the same thing!
OK, so what is the definition of a priest? I know you have a definite idea of what a priest is, based on your Catholicism. And I'd be willing to bet, without looking right now, that your definition varies from the Biblical definition in a few ways that are uniquely Catholic. You can't really take this discussion much farther without defining the terminology...
I couldn't agree more, Becky. My wife tends to want to go overboard in buying stuff for the kids, and I'm the one who puts the brakes on. If its the toy equivalent of junk food, then leave it on the shelf. The kids can play with it when we go to the store, and that's enough. The kind of things I want to buy for them are ones that will get long-term use, and encourage them to develop their creativity. Thus a doll house gets my vote over the latest electronic gizmo. I think a lot of the toys out there now are simply meant to serve as electronic babysitters. I don't like talking dolls; if the doll talks, the child doesn't need to make up the conversation. And a vocabulary of six or eight phrases doesn't go too far. Art supplies are always used. And the kids have tons of books, which we spend a lot of time reading. They probably have more toys than I did when I was little, but the things we have all get used.
Thanks! Glad to know I'm not alone in occasional flights of tweaking just because I can...it was fun! :o)
Gee, Robby, I don't know....you won't accept any of our authorities, not even the Bible, and we won't accept the Catholic Church as being the final authority...got any ideas?
I'll throw this in for discussion: From the Easton Bible Dictionary, the definition of Priest: (abridged to save space)
Priest - The Heb. kohen, Gr. hierus, Lat. sacerdos, always denote one who offers sacrifices.
At first every man was his own priest, and presented his own sacrifices before God. Afterwards that office devolved on the head of the family, as in the cases of Noah (Gen. 8:20), Abraham (12:7; 13:4), Isaac (26:25), Jacob (31:54), and Job (Job 1:5).
The name first occurs as applied to Melchizedek (Gen. 14:18). Under the Levitical arrangements the office of the priesthood was limited to the tribe of Levi, and to only one family of that tribe, the family of Aaron. Certain laws respecting the qualifications of priests are given in Lev. 21:16-23. There are ordinances also regarding the priests' dress (Ex. 28:40-43) and the manner of their consecration to the office (29:1-37).
Their duties were manifold (Ex. 27:20, 21; 29:38-44; Lev. 6:12; 10:11; 24:8; Num. 10:1-10; Deut. 17:8-13; 33:10; Mal. 2:7). They represented the people before God, and offered the various sacrifices prescribed in the law.
The whole priestly system of the Jews was typical. It was a shadow of which the body is Christ. The priests all prefigured the great Priest who offered "one sacrifice for sins" "once for all" (Heb. 10:10, 12). There is now no human priesthood. (See Epistle to the Hebrews throughout.) The term "priest" is indeed applied to believers (1 Pet. 2:9; Rev. 1:6), but in these cases it implies no sacerdotal functions. All true believers are now "kings and priests unto God." As priests they have free access into the holiest of all, and offer up the sacrifices of praise and thanksgiving, and the sacrifices of grateful service from day to day.
It would seem, from a cursory reading of the last paragraph, that the "sacerdotal" trappings are not really needed anymore, based on NT scriptures.
Let the discussions begin....
In the meantime, I wanted to let you know that I think the newspaper cartoonists are reading our discussion. I found the following in this past Saturday's newspaper:
BigMack, Becky, have you been holding out on us? ;o) I about fell out of my chair when I saw this on the editorial page!
And then I saw this on the funny page. What're the odds?
The last one is not as directly related, but was still funny:
None that we would all agree upon. Good point.
Its a SIGN!
BigMack
Rabbis are not 'priests', unless they are also kohenim. The hereditary priesthood of Judaism still exists, even if it does not serve most of its biblical functions (there are still some ceremonial things that only a kohein can do). Rabbis have no more authority to perform rituals than any other adult male member of a Jewish community. A rabbi is a teacher, someone who is educated in halakhah, and able to instruct the community, answer questions, and resolve disputes over matters of the Law. In a synagogue setting, they serve much the same function as a Protestant minister. Their status as rabbi does not give them any special authority to lead religious services, though. Any Jew sufficiently educated to know what he is doing can lead a religious service, and a service led by such a Jew is every bit as valid as a service led by a rabbi. It is not unusual for a community to be without a rabbi, or for Jewish services to be conducted without a rabbi.
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin [Rom. 7:14].
This is Paul’s testimony. “We know” was the general agreement among believers. The Law is spiritual in the sense that it was given by the Holy Spirit and is part of the Word of God. In other words, that is an expression in Scripture. For example, the Rock is called spiritual in I Corinthians 10:4, for it was produced by the Holy Spirit. Israel in the wilderness had spiritual meat and spiritual drink in this sense—that is, the Spirit of God provided it.
“But I am carnal.” This means, “I am in the flesh [Greek sarkinos].” It does not mean the meat on the bones of the body. Carnality refers to this old human mind and spirit and nature which occupies and uses the flesh so that actually the flesh itself is contaminated with sin. (For example, look upon the face of a baby and then look at the face fifty years later. Sin has written indelible lines even upon the surface of the body.) Flesh is inert and has no capabilities or possibilities toward God. It is dominated by a sinful nature, the ramifications of which reach into the inmost recesses of the body and mind. The heart of man is desperately wicked. He wants to do the things that are evil, and the body responds. Paul describes his pitiful plight as a slave sold to a Simon Legree taskmaster with a whiplash of evil.
For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I [Rom. 7:15].
Here we have the conflict of two natures, the old nature and the new nature. There are definitely two “I’s” in this section. The first “I” is the old nature as he asserts his rights. “For what I would” is what the new nature wants to do. “That do I not”—the old nature rebels and won’t do it. “But what I hate”—the new nature hates it—“that do I”; the old nature goes right ahead and does it.
Do you have the experience of this struggle in your Christian life? Do you do something, then hate yourself because you have done it? And you cry out, “God, oh how I’ve failed You!” I think every child of God has this experience. Paul is speaking of his own experience in this section. Apparently there were three periods in his life. First he was a proud Pharisee under the Mosaic system, kidding himself by bringing the sacrifices and doing other things which he thought would make him right with God. But the Law was condemning him all the while. Then the second period began when he met Christ on the Damascus Road. This proud young Pharisee turned to Christ as his Savior, but he still felt he could live the Christian life. His new nature said, “I am now going to live for God!” But he failed and was in the arena of struggle and failure for a time. I do not know how long it lasted—probably it was not long. There came a day when there was victory, but Paul did not win it; Christ did. Paul learned that it was a matter of yielding, presenting himself and letting the Spirit of God live the Christian life through him.
If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good [Rom. 7:16].
When the old nature breaks the commandment (in this instance it was coveting), then the new nature agrees with the law that coveting is wrong. Paul was not fighting the Law because he broke it. He was agreeing as a believer that the Law was good.
Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me [Rom. 7:17].
In other words: It is no longer I (new nature) who am working it out, but sin (the old nature) living in me. You see, Paul still had the old nature.
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not [Rom. 7:18].
Paul learned two things in this struggle, and they are something that many of us believers need to learn. “In me (that old nature we have been talking about) dwells no good thing.” Have you learned that? Have you found there is no good in you? Oh, how many of us Christians feel that we in the flesh can do something that will please God! Many believers who never find out otherwise become as busy as termites and are having about the same effect in many of our churches. They are busy as bees, but they aren’t making any honey! They get on committees, they are chairmen of boards, they try to run the church, and they think they are pleasing God. Although they are busy, they have no vital connection with the person of Christ. His life is not being lived through them. They are attempting to do it in their own strength by the flesh. They haven’t learned what Paul learned: “I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing.” Let me make it personal. Anything that BigMack does in the flesh, God hates. God won’t have it; God can’t use it. When it is of the flesh, it is no good. Have you learned that? That is a great lesson. The Lord Jesus said, “That which is born of the flesh is flesh …” (John 3:6) (and that is all it will ever be), but “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin …” (1 John 3:9). We are given a new nature, and that new nature will not commit sin. I assure you that the new nature won’t commit sin. When I sin, it is the old nature. The new nature won’t do it; the new nature just hates sin. That new nature won’t let me sleep at night; it says, “Look, you are wrong. You have to make it right!” Paul found out something else that is very important for us to learn: “for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.” He found there is no good in the old nature and there is no power in the new nature. The new nature wants to serve God, but the carnal man is at enmity against God; it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be (see Rom. 8:7). But the new nature has no power. I remember when I started out, oh, I was going to live for God! That’s when I fell on my face, and I have never fallen harder than I did then. I thought I could do it myself. But I found there was no power in the new nature. And that is the reason that an evangelist can always get response in a meeting. I’m afraid ninety percent of the decisions that are made in our churches today have been made by Christians who have been living in defeat in their Christian lives. What they are really saying is, “I want to live for God. I want to do better.” Often an evangelist in a meeting says, “All of you that want to live for God, put up your hand. All of you today that want to come closer to God, put up your hand. Those of you who want to commit your life to God, come forward.” The minute an evangelist says that, he’s got me. That is what I want to do. That new nature of mine says, “I sure would like to live for God.” But there is no power in it. That is what multitudes of believers fail to recognize. There have been folk who have been coming forward for years, and that’s all they have been doing—just coming forward! They never make any progress. Oh, how they need to understand this truth!
For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do [Rom. 7:19].
Have you experienced this?
Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me [Rom. 7:20].
It is that old nature, my friend, that is causing us trouble.
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me [Rom. 7:21].
When you are attempting to serve God in the Spirit, have you discovered that the old nature is right there to bring evil? Perhaps an evil thought will come into your mind. Every child of God, regardless of his state, must admit that in every act and in every moment evil is present with him. Failure to recognize this will eventually lead to shipwreck in the Christian life.
For I delight in the law of God after the inward man [Rom. 7:22].
“The inward man” is the new nature.
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members [Rom. 7:23].
You see, you don’t get rid of the old nature when you are saved. And yet there is no power in your new nature. “I see a different law” is the enmity of the old nature against God. It causes the child of God who is honest to cry out, as Paul cried:
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? [Rom 7:24].
This is not an unsaved man who is crying, “O wretched man that I am”; this is a saved man. The word wretched carries with it the note of exhaustion because of the struggle. “Who is going to deliver me?” He is helpless. His shoulders are pinned to the floor—he has been wrestled down. Like old Jacob, he has been crippled. He is calling for help from the outside.
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin [Rom. 7:25].
“I thank God who gives deliverance through Jesus Christ our Lord.” This is the answer to Paul’s SOS. God has provided deliverance. It introduces chapter 8 in which the deliverance is given in detail. Both salvation and sanctification come through Christ; He has provided everything we need.
BigMack
I think they all down at the Harley shop.........
You and your wife will love OK at Christimas time, Becky is Italian and cooks an Italian Christmas diner, and then we all take turns opening presents one at a time starting with the youngest to the oldest, it takes over an hour or so.
PS: I like chrome, just in case you forgot, we also have cheese. :)
BigMack
I kind of had a crisis of faith over this. I read the same stuff that said so and so and really written this book, and so and so had really written this one, etc.
It caused me to question *everything* that was in the bible. Then I realized, like Robby, that of course that view was really only the opinion of someone else.
Ultimately it doesn't matter who wrote them. What matters is that they were inspired by God.
Not asexual, but heterosexual. I think Paul, not being married when he was converted, was conflicted by his sexual desires. I'm assuming that he thought that sex outside of marriage was not permissable and so struggled. Not having any "outlet" for it, he may have occassionaly found an "outlet" that involved...how should I say, improper fantasies?
I think all and all it's not that big of an issue. It's one every man struggles with. But it was Pauls fate to have his struggles put forth in a book and read by billions.
ALL: Hope y'all had a good weekend. Mine was great, but little Hannah has another cold and ear infection. I guess she never did really get over the first one. Prayers would be appreciated (mostly for her tired, frustrated mommy).
| Monday, November 12, 2001 Saint Josaphat, bishop and martyr - Memorial |
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And from The Word Among Us ...
The Book of Wisdom, which was written around the first century b.c., had the purpose of encouraging its readers to take pride in their faith. The author, a skilled motivational writer, is unknown, but his use of earlier Old Testament writings shows that he was a pious Jew, well educated and dedicated to the Mosaic law. He wrote in Greek and was familiar with Greek ideas, and he gave special attention to Egyptians (Wisdom 10-12; 16-19).
All these clues have led scholars to believe that the author of Wisdom lived in Alexandria, Egypt, which was then home to the largest Jewish community outside Palestine. In this large, cosmopolitan city, Jews often experienced discrimination and needed encouragement to hold fast to their traditions. Some were lured away by Greek philosophy and culture. To all his readers, the author said: Don't be deceived! If you seek truth and justice, then "think of the Lord . . . and seek him" (Wisdom 1:1).
This is Wisdom's message to us as well. As believers, we know that Jesus is "the power of God and the wisdom of God" (1 Corinthians 1:24). To belong to Jesus and walk in his way is to possess wisdom. If we remain united to him, he will give us his heart and form our thoughts to see things as he does. Then we can embrace what Jesus embraces and cast aside what he casts aside.
Do you want to be wise? Then love God and love your neighbor. Filter out the distractions that draw you away from Jesus. Reject the world's empty promises and fill your mind instead with the great things God can bring about through your mustard-seed faith (Luke 17:6). Put aside any "perverse thoughts" that separate you from God (Wisdom 1:3) and receive his teachings about loving others with justice, mercy, and forgiveness. Follow his lead by depending on the Father and aiming to please him. Live simply, in imitation of Jesus. It's a lifestyle that's stimulating, freeing--and wise.
"Jesus, Wisdom of the Father, you came to save and free us. Fashion my heart to be wise like yours, and fixed on the simplicity of life."
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Have a good day, everybody!
SD
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