The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
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[malakhi]

I just read that the rabbinical authorities of the Palestine Jews around 80 to 90AD, made anyone entering the Jewish Synagogue, repeat this prayer of a curse to come on anyone who attended the Sabbath services who was actually a Christian. Have you ever heard anything like this?

Close to being accurate. The inclusion of this phrase into the Amidah (part of the Jewish worship service) was aimed at reinforcing orthodoxy. The "benediction against the minim" was aimed at apostates, sectarians and schismatics. This included those of a variety of sects, including gnostics, not just Jewish Christians. Please note that this this would have affected Jewish Christians, not gentiles. Tension between the Jewish and Christian communities had been growing for some time. Basically, this change in the liturgy was aimed at forcing Jewish Christians to choose between returning to orthodox Judaism, or becoming wholly Christian.

The Christians were not averse to returning the favor, either. When John Chrysostom (later bishop of Constantinople, and declared a saint and doctor of the church by the Catholic Church) became a priest of Antioch in the late 300's C.E., he was appalled to find out that the Christians there (most of whom were of Jewish background, and who had family that was still Jewish) maintained such good relations with the Jews, even attending synagogue with them. His Homilies Against the Jews set the tone for Christian treatment of Jews for the next 1400 years. Ol' John's fulminations against the Jews make our worst spats here look like a Martha Stewart dinner party.

[nobdysfool]

I felt evil when I witnessed a church proclaiming Christ mock Him out of love for their tradition by boldly defying His commandment!

Are you saying you personally felt like you were evil for witnessing this, or are you saying that you felt the presence of evil?

Just a point of clarification, not a challenge!

[the808bass]

The "image" we all have of Santa Claus is largely the product of the Coca Cola company.

This image came from an advertising agency right here in St. Louis. They also came up with Louie the Lizard, the Clydesdale commercials, the Quaker Oats guy, and Aunt Jemima (I think all those are right). Ain't capitalism grand?

[nobdysfool]

His Homilies Against the Jews set the tone for Christian treatment of Jews for the next 1400 years. Ol' John's fulminations against the Jews make our worst spats here look like a Martha Stewart dinner party.

Kind of sad, isn't it? Personally, my love of God places within me a love for the Jews. I pray for the peace of Jerusalem, and I love the OT, especially Psalms and Proverbs. I don't know many Jews personally, but the ones I know or have known are some of the most interesting, wonderful people I have ever had the pleasure to know.

[nobdysfool]

I meant to add, also, that in my opinion, anyone who says they love God, but treats Jews with disrespect or loathing is a liar, and the love of God is not in him. God has not turned His back on the Jewish people, and the whole focus of the Second Coming (I know you disagree with me here, but this is my belief) is the redemption and restoration of the Jews, and the Messianic Kingdom, which we Christians refer to as the Milennial Kingdom. The neat part is that we Gentiles get to be a part of it! Praise God!

[the808bass]

Never is there a scriptural account of charasmatic chaos.

This begs the question. You define what charismatic belief is as chaos and then say God doesn't like chaos. Of course God doesn't like chaos. God doesn't like know-it-all condemnational actions of those like Hank Hanegraaf either (IMVHO).

In regards to our discussion on charismatic practice of modern times, is there a specific practice with which you have a problem (more so than others) or do you object to the whole Pentecostal movement as a whole. The reason I ask is that I don't want to write a really long formulation of the Scriptural foundation of Pentecostalism if I can deal with issues as they come up (with Scripture). So, if you'd like me to address a specific issue, I'd enjoy the challenge. If you don't buy the whole Pentecostalism thing as a whole, then I must begin formulating (where is my J. Rodman Williams book anyways).

[the808bass]

Tell me what do you think of tv's finest charismatics TBN, Paul and Jan and Bennie and the rest of the gang.

Inside scoop: Paul and Jan live in separate homes. They have two apiece. One each in Henderson, TN and one each in California. Draw your own conclusions. Paul has times when he has to go to um..er.. places that help you with stuff...what do they call them? Bennie is a consummate and inveterate liar who lies about everything from doctrine to his own nationality. And he has very bad hair. He affiliated himself with the AoG for a while to the great consternation of a number of AoG pastors. After it was established in a relatively short amount of time that he wanted no accountability (believe me, we have precious little of it for most pastors) to anyone other than himself, the AoG and Benny parted ways.

[malakhi]

Now if I could convince you Jesus Christ is your savior. :)

BigMack, I tried for most of my life to try to believe and to have faith that this was true. I tried all varieties of churches. I prayed, accepting Jesus as my Lord and Savior, and inviting him into my heart and my life. Nothing. Nothing. In my case, it wasn't a dabbling with Christianity, then a discarding of it. I studied the scriptures, prayed, and strove to live a Christian life. But I was spiritually dead. No matter how much I prayed for faith, I could not quite believe.

When I began exploring my Jewish heritage, it was a revelation. The Hebrew scriptures came alive for me in a way that had never done when I read them as a Christian. Approaching Him as a Jew, I found the Living God. He made an Everlasting Covenant with my people. Out of obedience and love, I must do His will.

[nobdysfool]

And they didn't say the work of God was the work of the Devil. They lied to the Spirit of God. And they died by the Spirit of God

Lying to the Holy Spirit is not the same as calling His work the work of Satan. Paul in another place talks about handing one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh that their spirit may be saved. God exacted a high price for lying to Him, but it does not say that they blasphemed the Holy Spirit. You are reading into this something that cannot be proven. The real question is, is lying blasphemy? Or is it just not telling the truth? Their sin was actually fraud, with a lie to try to cover it. Still not calling anything the work of Satan, that I can see. Let's define blasphemy, and then see if their sin fits that description. And I would suggest going back to the original language to search for the meaning, not Webster's dictionary. Words mean things.

[the808bass]

but I do get INSP

I got a friend who works in their music department. He's like a combination of Colonel Sanders and the Pillsbury Doughboy and he likes to dance when leading worship :)

[malakhi]

This image came from an advertising agency right here in St. Louis. They also came up with Louie the Lizard, the Clydesdale commercials, the Quaker Oats guy, and Aunt Jemima (I think all those are right). Ain't capitalism grand?

What I want to know is what sort of connection there is between Aunt Jemima and the drewids.

[malakhi]

Thank you.

I'm glad you share my love of the psalms. They are mankind's prayer to God. It is amazing how after all this time they still speak to the human condition, our tribulations, and our yearning for God.

[nobdysfool]

It's not really anything I need to know about...I don't even know who Paul and Jan are. I know who Benny Hinn is, and I've heard things all over the map about him. They can't all be true. I've got enough to do with making sure my own walk is right before God. God has anointed many who don't necessarily stay where they ought, and go off into error. It's one of the hazards of ministry. Satan spends extra time working on them. To whom much is given, much is required. If nothing else, we must still respect the anointing, until such time as it's obvious that the anointing is not there, either by a word from God, or by continual, obvious, unrepented sin.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Someone could commit that sin today, but it would be someone who either (1)was at one time a professing Christian, and had tasted of the power of the Holy Spirit, or (2) one who was familiar with spiritual power, and willfully refused to acknowledge the the true source of the work of the Holy Spirit, but rather called it the power of Satan or Beelzebub.

Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David? [Matt. 12:22–23].

In other words, “This is our Messiah. He has the credentials.” This was a tremendous miracle He performed, just as great as the raising of the dead if not greater. The continued miracles of Jesus in healing and casting out demons convinced the people that He was the Son of David, the Messiah. But what did the Pharisees say?

But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils [Matt. 12:24].

This is the question of the unpardonable sin. Follow this very carefully.

And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges [Matt. 12:25–27].

They would never say that their own people cast out demons by Beelzebub.

But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you [Matt. 12:28].

“The kingdom of God is come unto you” in the presence of the Messiah. Christ is saying, “I am here! My power to cast out demons is My credential.”

Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house. He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad. Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come [Matt. 12:29–32].

There is no sin committed yesterday that the Lord would not forgive today because He died for all sin. The Holy Spirit came into the world to make real the salvation of Christ to the hearts of men. If you resist the working of the Spirit of God when He speaks to you, there is no forgiveness, of course. There is no forgiveness because you have rejected salvation made real to you by the Holy Spirit. And it is the work of the Spirit of God to regenerate you.

In Mark 3 the Lord amplifies the matter of the unpardonable sin by saying that it attributes the Spirit’s work to Satan, that Christ had performed these miracles by Beelzebub when actually He was doing them by the power of the Spirit of God. You see, they were rejecting the witness of Himself and of the Holy Spirit.

In our day that particular sin cannot be committed because it could only be committed when Jesus was here upon the earth. There is no act of sin that you could commit for which there is no forgiveness. Of course, if you resist the Holy Spirit, there is no forgiveness because He is bringing forgiveness. It is like the man who is dying from a certain disease, and the doctor tells him there is a remedy for it. The man refuses to take the remedy and dies, not from the disease but from refusing to take the remedy. There is a remedy for the disease of sin, and the Holy Spirit applies it; but if you resist it, there is no remedy. That is the only way sin can be unpardonable today. Now the Lord says:

O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh [Matt. 12:34].

“O generation of vipers”—you may remember that John the Baptist had called them the same thing.

A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things [Matt. 12:35].

“What is in the well of the heart will come out through the bucket of the mouth,” someone has said. This scathing denunciation of the religious rulers by Jesus reveals that He has rejected them. Had they committed the unpardonable sin? At least the break with these enemies is final and the wound will not be healed.

But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment [Matt. 12:36].

“Idle word” means blasphemies.

For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned [Matt 12:37].

You will be “condemned” because you are speaking the thing which is in your heart.

BigMack

[nobdysfool]

I'm glad you share my love of the psalms. They are mankind's prayer to God. It is amazing how after all this time they still speak to the human condition, our tribulations, and our yearning for God.

Amen, brother! I'm a musician myself, so the musical qualities of the Psalms speak to me, also. David was a gifted and inspired musician, prolific writer, and an true inspiration. Sometimes when I read the Psalms, tears well up in my eyes because I can feel the words so strongly, and they resonate within my own heart. An inexhaustible source of comfort and ministry....

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

When I began exploring my Jewish heritage, it was a revelation. The Hebrew scriptures came alive for me in a way that had never done when I read them as a Christian. Approaching Him as a Jew, I found the Living God. He made an Everlasting Covenant with my people. Out of obedience and love, I must do His will.

You are a fair and fine man angelo, I am proud to know you, and my prayers are with you and your family, but please forgive me if I don't give up on you. :)

BigMack

[apologist]

Hi!

Is there anything in the Hebrew scriptures that explicitly states every prophecy the Messiah fulfills will happen in one visit?

Others have raised this question previously. I will provide a twofold answer.

1. No, there is no single verse which explicitly says "the messiah will only come once." But he will be a man, and men live only once.

While it may be true that most modern Jewish thought holds that the Messiah will not be divine, historically that was not always so black and white - it was more of a spectrum of beliefs. Some early traditions attribute almost semi-divine qualities to the Messiah: the preexistence of the Messiah, the Messiah coming on clouds, lessser-known early Jewish religious texts (such as the Similitudes of Enoch) that spoke of a heavenly Messiah. The Talmud refers to disagreement among rabbis as to whether or not the thrones spoken of in Daniel 7:9-10 were for Him (the heavenly father) and the Messiah, or for "justice" and "grace".

The midrash on Isaiah 52:13 describes the Messiah using such lofty attributes (exalting him above Moses and angels) that other Jewish commentators warned of the potential for "heretics" to use the midrash to support the concept of a divine Messiah.

Also, there are a number of passages of scripture that lend themselves to a "divine Messiah" interpretation; for example, Psalm 45 reads in part

Your throne, o elohim, will last forever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
You love righteousness and hate wickedness;
therefore 'elohim, your 'elohim, has set you above
your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.

The use of 'elohim here really only makes sense if the fulfillment is thru a divine Messiah.

It's of some ironic interest that the modern-day Lubavitchers (Chabad) not only refer to their deceased Rabbi Schneerson as King Messiah, but also use very divine-sounding titles as "Essence of the Infinite".

2. There is a serious problem with an argument based on what is absent from scripture. Consider the following reasoning:

1. The Hebrew scriptures prophecize a messiah.
2. The Hebrew scriptures do not explicitly say the messiah will come only once.
3. Therefore, the messiah will come twice.

The only serious problem here is that you're postulating a chain of logic I never asserted ;-). I wouldn't suggest that (1) and (2) necessitate (3), only that (3) is possible.

[nobdysfool]

“The kingdom of God is come unto you” in the presence of the Messiah. Christ is saying, “I am here! My power to cast out demons is My credential.”

Luke 10:2-11. Jesus sent forth His disciples to do the very same works, and to tell people that the kingdom of heaven had come nigh unto them. They did so by the very selfsame Holy Spirit. So your contention that it could only be done in Jesus' presence doesn't wash. Anyone ministering in the power of the Holy Spirit could be confronted with the same accusation, and the accuser would be committing thae very same sin. So, it can happen, and probably has happened today.

[nobdysfool]

Isn't it true that there is evidence in OT scripture for both a suffering Messiah, and a conquering Messiah?

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

So your contention that it could only be done in Jesus' presence doesn't wash.

Do you believe you can be saved and then loose it?

BigMack