The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
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[RobbyS]

You don't know why why the dogma was proclimed, do you? In any case, the practical effect was to give the Roman pontiff more power within the church than he had ever had before.

[DouglasKC]

Oh, and read the link I left for Becky in post #6739. It might explain some of the scripture you're going to quote. Like I told Becky, I too thought at first that Sunday was specified as a worship day in the New Testament because it's when (supposedly) Christ was resurrected.

Read it and try to dispute it. I did and couldn't.

[nobdysfool]

hmmmm....maybe the Amish are onto something here...they are very careful about that, they don't even want their pictures taken....

My understanding of this is that we are not to make any image of a man, beast, fish, or fowl for the purpose of representing God, a god, or in anyway creating an object that would give rise to worship, or be used as focal object for worship. It would seem that it could include a Crucifix also, especially since it has a human figure attached to it. On the other hand, this was part of Mosaic Law, and Gentiles were never bound by it. Robby asked about the Ark of the Covenant, and the Tabernacle (or was it the Temple? same difference). In Robbys question, the Ark and the Tabernacle/Temple did not represent anything on earth, nor were they the image of a man, beast, fish or fowl; Therefore, this prohibition wouldn't apply.

I guess maybe the best way to determine it is to ask, Does it look like an idol? Is it an object of worship? Is it a focal point for worship? Does it distract from true worship? If the answer to any one or more of these questions is "yes", then it probably shouldn't be there.

[nobdysfool]

U.S. currency has 'graven images' on it. Avoid sin: send that 'debbil' money to angelo.

Once this particular subject got started, I knew it was just a matter of time before someone hit this point...:o)

Oh, angelo, need some help handling all that "debbil" money? I'd be only too glad to help you take it to the bank, carry your money bags, that sort of thing....

[malakhi]

hmmmm....maybe the Amish are onto something here...they are very careful about that, they don't even want their pictures taken....

Any suggestions on where I can find a good Amish chat room?

Oh, angelo, need some help handling all that "debbil" money? I'd be only too glad to help you take it to the bank, carry your money bags, that sort of thing....

Sure, sure, you're hired. I expect my assistants to be honest. In addition to your salary, you are permitted to skim off 10% of the take, and no more.

Brings to mind an old truth:

"An honest politician--one who stays bought."

[RobbyS]

nor were they the image of a man, beast, fish or fowl; The same could be said of the hybrid beasts of Babylonia. The cherubim are no more nor less imaginary. The real issue is the true force of the proof-texts. To what extent are Christians bound by the strictures of the Law? IMO, they used the wrecking of churches much as radicals in our time use flag-burning, to justify their contempt for the existing order. It is interesting that the Germans, who retained a more liturgical religion, never "purged" their churches of "idols," to the same extent as the Swiss, or the Huguenots, or others, so that they resembled the work of Musselmen when they converted a church to a mosque.

[nobdysfool]

The cherubim are no more nor less imaginary. The real issue is the true force of the proof-texts. To what extent are Christians bound by the strictures of the Law? IMO, they used the wrecking of churches much as radicals in our time use flag-burning, to justify their contempt for the existing order. It is interesting that the Germans, who retained a more liturgical religion, never "purged" their churches of "idols," to the same extent as the Swiss, or the Huguenots, or others, so that they resembled the work of Musselmen when they converted a church to a mosque.

Not sure I followed all of what you wrote, but it seems to me that even though I can find no scripture saying that Gentiles are bound by Mosaic Law, the commandment itself makes sense, and following it would do no harm. Some have a problem with Crucifixes, but since my conversion was precipitated in part by viewing one, I'm probably not the one to pass judgement on that one. At the moment it happened, I was, for all intents and purposes, viewing the actual crucifixion, and reacted accordingly. Since then, I have not felt any need to have one, to seek one out, or to attach any particular significance to one as a method of getting saved. God sovereignly used one to get my attention. I don't say that it proves that God endorses, or doesn't endorse Crucifixes.

[RobbyS]

When Protestant mobs took over Catholic Chuches, they despoiled them, encouraged in their vandalism by their leaders, who pointed to the "2nd Commandment" as justification. It was simply part of their rejection of the "old Church." Many German Protestants took a more relaxed view, and still do. There, for instance, is a great crucifix in the Dom in Ulm.

[PoorMuttly]

Thanks for welcoming me, gang...but where to jump in? Does Jim know this is where all his bandwidth is going? Wow!

[D-fendr]

I think post #6769 would be a good place to jump in.

Welcome in.

[PoorMuttly]

Ha! O.K....so why don't we have a current translation from the "more valid" Greek texts supposedly used for the KJV, and not just a slightly less-archaic (New K.J.) version of one written in 1610 ?!!!! MUST we speak antique English to be righteous? I have a few different versions, and between them, reading the footnotes, Greek and Hebrew words, it seems pretty clear to me that we can now do a lot better.

[PoorMuttly]

By the way, just to modify any late-night vitriol I may be unknowingly projecting...it always amazes me how the actual, practical Spiritual message always gets through, no matter the deficiencies of man. The message is superior to all efforts to obscure it, and I have found Truth in most bibles, and Christians...to varying degrees. Truly a miraculous message, and book.

[Havoc]

Let's approach this another way. This is going to seem indelicate because I need to make a point. Suppose someone were to make a statue of Jesus (or what they thought Jesus looked like) doing something indelicate, like going to the bathroom. They put it up in their church because they were inspired by it to worship the "true" Jesus.

Gettin aweful close to my *widget* argument that sent everyone nutso. LOL

[Havoc]

Guys, you agree?

Interesting to finally see one of them proclaim it. I suppose we should all just wrap this up and go see if Hitler or Mussolini had any thoughts on religion. They must have made some infallible pronouncements of their own. Or perhaps we should see if Mao or Stalin have had any infallible philosophical utterances that look Christian in any way. Perhaps maybe we should go back and see if Baal had anything infallible to say. Afterall, if unrepentant, ungodly people can speak inerrantly about God's nature and laws, why in the world should we ever pay any attention to pastors and teachors, Bishops and Cardinals and the like. Heck, lets all just march across town to the coven house and sit down and listen to the man with the upside down cross giving his opinions on the meaning of the Cross.

If you all can't see the absurdity in this, I don't know what more to say.

[Havoc]

please show me where Annanias and Sapphira blasphemed the Holy Spirit or were sent to Hell???

Two things:
1) Can you read?
2) What part of "unforgiveable sin" do you not understand.

[Havoc]

What is the difference between Salvation and Eternal Life? How can one have Salvation but not have Eternal Life? Where would that “saved” person go if he did not have Eternal Life? If there is a difference, what are we “Saved” from if not from Death unto Life?

This is really like 4 or 5 questions, right? LOL.

What are we saved from. I want badly to ask you how you could ask this. Most who become Christians seem to *never* pay any attention to the previous covenant. Men in the prior covenant went to a great deal of expense by way of sacrifice to attempt to cleanse themselves from sin. Ope, didn't think sin existed back then or that there was sacrifice for it? Just a gentle reminder. Jesus' sacrifice Unburdened us from the old system and saves us from our sins, for the which there MUST be a sacrifice. Salvation is a cleansing of our sins that sets us free from the law and sin and death that condemned us for all we had done in our lives to that point. It wipes the slate clean. There is no way, now, other than through Jesus to do that.

Salvation is salvation from what we were. And it gives us a chance to be what we can be through God's help. I want you to ask yourself this: If we are 100% free from the law of sin and death, why was the couple in Acts 5 put to death by God for sin? There is a quite obvious answer for this in scripture; but...

In being saved from our sins at the time of salvation, the sin in our lives that should condemn us to death is no more. And Jesus is the only one who can remove it. If you were to go on without him, you would die in your sin and go to Hell. Salvation is being saved from certain Hell. Upon salvation, we have a chance then to walk in obedience in the spirit of God unto eternal life. Thus we go from death, to life, to life eternal. This is what scripture portrays. Many either oversimplify this and miss the basics or forget the basics and turn it into something it is not. Salvation, again, is the first step in the walk - it is not the whole journey. If it were, Paul could have been saved, shut his mouth, sat down and continued in sin the rest of his life and not had to worry with thos petty things like righteousness and being free from sin, walking in the Spirit of God and warning people not to have sin in their lives because they don't know when the master will return...

[Havoc]

Any other Popes you know for certain are in hell? All of them? All of us Catholics? Y'all jump on us for finding loopholes in our "all must be subject to the Roman Pontiff" schtick, then find one of the freelancers acting like judge of the world.

The man was bereft of the Spirit of God and bankrupt of anything of God. Therefore, I used him as an example in humor to illustrate a point. If you want to get dogmatic about it, that's your problem. I can appreciate both the humor and the sadness of the happenstance. You can't because you have beliefs to defend and he's a major hole in them.

[ksen]

Thank you for your response.

I have one more favor to ask, would you mind reading this post and tell me what you think of the rest of it? I would like to hear your thoughts.

Thanks.

-ksen

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I don't believe that it was commanded to change the sabbath to Sunday. I don't believe we are now allowed to ignore the 10 commandments. But from the evidence in the bible NT Christians met on Sunday to break bread and give tithes and offerings. IMO, I don't think God cares what day we gather to worship him, he just commanded that we do. (Heb 10:25) Since he commanded that we do, and the church I go to gatheres on Sunday morning and night and Wed. night that is when I go. I suggest you find a church that has fundamental beliefs, not working their way to heaven which if they are meeting on Sat. might be an indication that they are trying to keep the old law, therefore have not come to a full understanding of the new covenant.

Becky

[DouglasKC]

But when Paul gathered for fellowship with the church it wason Sunday as revealed here and in 1 Cor. 16:2 Sunday was the day they received offerings

Co 16:2 On the first day of the week, let every one of you put by him in store, in measure as he has done well in business, so that it may not be necessary to get money together when I come.
1Co 16:3 And when I come, I will send the men of your selection with letters to take the money you have got together to Jerusalem.

They are supposed to figure out their finances on the first day of the week and set aside the offering so that they wouldn't have to figure it all out when Paul showed up. They wouldn't do this work on the Sabbath, so they do it the next day. Nowhere does it say or even imply that they have an offering or worship on the first day.