The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
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[SoothingDave]

I think the prohibition is there partly because making an image or symbol limits the infinite nature of God.

God became man. He had a face. People saw it. God didn't have a problem then with people seeing Him. God limited Himself in this way when He took on flesh.

SD

[malakhi]

Since you're the first Jew I've ever engaged in significant religious conversation, you're going to have to answer my questions. :-)

Well, I am happy to do so.

What specifically do Jews deny about Christianity? That there was a Jesus? That he was the messiah?

I don't think very many people anymore deny that Jesus ever lived. There may be a few Jews that do, but most Jews believe that he was an historical person.

Jews believe that Jesus was a man. He was a preacher who travelled around Israel and who attracted a following. Most of what he is reported to have taught is perfectly compatible with Jewish belief. Jews do not believe that Jesus was the messiah. We do not believe that he fulfilled the messianic prophecies of the Hebrew scriptures. We believe that the messiah will be a man, not divine (and not necessarily even a miracle worker). He will fulfill ALL of the messianic prophecies within his lifetime, and it is this fulfillment which will demonstrate that he is in fact the messiah. Jews do not believe that you need to "believe" in the messiah in order to be "saved". The messiah will be a man of the line of David who will fulfill certain scriptural prophecies, nothing more.

While Jews deny the divinity of Jesus, and believe that the Christian understanding of the nature of God (a trinity) is in error, we do recognize that we share a great deal in common with Christians. When Christians act as disciples of Jesus, living as he taught, they fit the category of what Jews call 'righteous gentiles'.

[DouglasKC]

The ark wasn't supposed to represent God, neither was the temple as far as I know...unless God looks like an ark or a temple, in which case I'm wrong. But your point was no limiting of god's presence.

Well, my main point was the violation of the second commandment. My secondary point (my opinion) was that we shouldn't have images of God or symbols of God because they limit our understanding of the true God by boiling him down to a symbol or an image.

[SoothingDave]

Nay, shouldn't it demand that the gov't follow the dictates of God?

"Demand"? No. What consequence do you propose the Church institute should the state not acquiesce to the Church's demands?

Excommunicate politicians. Stomp its feet. I am not proposing that we return to a state Church, or an intermingling of the two. But I am saying that the Church should realize its position is above the state and act that way. Make demands.

States that impose "the dictates of God" on their citizens generally are not very pleasant places to live. Secular authority is of this world. The best we can hope for in terms of secular government is 'King Log'. It is utopian to suggest that the kingdom of God can be implemented in this world. We should continue to try to improve the world, but we should be under no illusions as to the likelihood of our success.

I don't get "King Log." Your last sentence is a keeper.

SD

[SoothingDave]

But, I'm sure he's telling all those people with him that their time in purgatory(hell) is almost over because, afterall, he was a "pope" and infallible vicars of Christ just can't expound errors or go to hell..

Any other Popes you know for certain are in hell? All of them? All of us Catholics?

Y'all jump on us for finding loopholes in our "all must be subject to the Roman Pontiff" schtick, then find one of the freelancers acting like judge of the world.

SD

[SoothingDave]

or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

God might say, "What part of ANY didn't you understand?"

Indeed He might. Now do you have absolutely nothing in your possession with an image of anything in earth, the sea or heaven. Remember the little girl with the raincoat on the Morton Salt box? What about the Land O Lakes Indian girl? You're going to hell I guess.

SD

[DouglasKC]

Ahem. You have no graven images in your possession? No images of anything on earth, in the sea or in the heavens? The literal prohibition is against making anything which images anything else. I bet your computer screen containsd representations of "letters" from the "alphabet." This is a violation.

The literal for "graven image" is the Hebrew word "pecal", which is used throught the old testament to mean an idol, or a religious idol.

[SoothingDave]

Cool. Now I know where I really got it from. And all this time I thought I got it from SoothingDave

I was just the mediator, the intermediator. :-)

SD

[al_c]

Is it okay to do the physical act as long as you believe you're worshipping God?

I think I made it perfectly clear that I am not worshipping a statue. My God is a real God. I don't need a statue to worship Him. But seeing an image of the suffering that He went through for me is pretty inspiring.

Does that mean it's okay to murder someone as long as you're worshipping God while you're doing it?

Huh? And I thought (up until now) that your quest for knowledge and your debates have been pretty intelligent.

[al_c]

Looks like a primitive necktie! ;o)

[OLD REGGIE]

He might also say, "What part of worship didn't you understand?" You see, the two verses make up one sentence (there's even more, though, discussing the sins of the father) and you can't use one without the other. It basically is saying that we should not make images to worship. When I bow at the altar, it is toward God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit ... not to the crucifix behind the altar or to the altar itself. There IS a difference.

And... if you should kiss the crucifix, or the toes of the statue of Mary as she is being paraded down the street???

[SoothingDave]

The messiah will be a man of the line of David who will fulfill certain scriptural prophecies, nothing more.

Two questions. Isn't one of the prophecies that Israel will be gathered together again, or something like that? That all the nations will look to Israel and recognize its God? That is no trivial matter.

And do we actually know who is of the Davidic line anymore?

SD

[SoothingDave]

My secondary point (my opinion) was that we shouldn't have images of God or symbols of God because they limit our understanding of the true God by boiling him down to a symbol or an image.

But God did take on an image.

SD

[DouglasKC]

He will fulfill ALL of the messianic prophecies within his lifetime, and it is this fulfillment which will demonstrate that he is in fact the messiah. Jews do not believe that you need to "believe" in the messiah in order to be "saved". The messiah will be a man of the line of David who will fulfill certain scriptural prophecies, nothing more.

I'm going to assume that Christians believe that the prophecies unfullfilled by Jesus will be fullfilled at the 2nd coming. If that were the case, then he would still be invalid because he didn't fullfill them during his lifetime?

[DouglasKC]

Does that mean it's okay to murder someone as long as you're worshipping God while you're doing it?

Huh? And I thought (up until now) that your quest for knowledge and your debates have been pretty intelligent.

I couldn't think of a non-offensive analogy that would get the point across...sorry.

Let me try this, if someone (not you) had sex with their neighbors wife and worshipped God while doing it, would that be okay?

Or, if someone stole a car but was deep in prayer and worship while doing it, would that be okay?

I seriously can't see the difference. If all that counts is your motivation, then physical acts don't count for squat.

[DouglasKC]

My secondary point (my opinion) was that we shouldn't have images of God or symbols of God because they limit our understanding of the true God by boiling him down to a symbol or an image. But God did take on an image.

But should we be worshipping the image that God took on or should we be worshipping the eternal glory of Christ?

[the808bass]

I don't have a problem in discussing some Scriptures on the subject, so after this post, I will be happy to oblige you. However, I would like you to answer a question. Do you honestly think that Pentecostals have never confronted that issue? Do you think that they never considered what the Scripture has to say in regards to their practice? Do you think that they are all completely governed by "euphoria?"

[RobbyS]

my point is: what is the essential difference between "housing" a god in an idol, or housing him in the ark and temple? The purpose of the second commanment was to distinguish the Lord from the ba'als of Canaan. The pagans were so unused to this practive that when Alexander? Pompey? entered the Holy of Holies, he was astonished to find it empty.

[al_c]

Let me try this, if someone (not you) had sex with their neighbors wife and worshipped God while doing it, would that be okay?

Absolutely not.

Or, if someone stole a car but was deep in prayer and worship while doing it, would that be okay?

Nope.

I seriously can't see the difference. If all that counts is your motivation, then physical acts don't count for squat.

And I can't see the similarities of your examples.