The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
TNS Archives

[al_c]

And... if you should kiss the crucifix, or the toes of the statue of Mary as she is being paraded down the street???

I wouldn't know ... I don't do that.

[DouglasKC]

my point is: what is the essential difference between "housing" a god in an idol, or housing him in the ark and temple? The purpose of the second commanment was to distinguish the Lord from the ba'als of Canaan. The pagans were so unused to this practive that when Alexander? Pompey? entered the Holy of Holies, he was astonished to find it empty.

Exactly my point. Even the Hebrews wouldn't dare to have anything earthly try to represent God. Nowadays we just might throw a cross in the Holy of Holies and say that it really isn't Christ, it just represents him.

[SoothingDave]

But should we be worshipping the image that God took on or should we be worshipping the eternal glory of Christ?

We don't worship the image. That is your perception only. The image of Christ, who was really on earth, as a real man with a real face, who suffered a real death for us, can lead us to better understand the reality of the glory of God. All those poor, dull, illiterate folks certainly understand the concept when they see a Crucifix.

SD

[NATE4"ONE NATION"]

I know they have. I am not saying that you cannot form a defense for your position. I "was" a pentacostal myself until 2 years ago and I decided to revisit the issue of this position.
We, who are stuck in our ways or enjoy the pleasure of our ways, tend to find a defense for what we are doing or what we sincerely believe to be true, however, we must be teachable and humble enough to our error if scripture contains no defense for our position. And I know for a fact, there is no defense in scripture for what Pentacostals do today.
You are encouraged, and I hope you can because I know and love many sincere Pentacostals, to prove me wrong!

[DouglasKC]

Let me try this, if someone (not you) had sex with their neighbors wife and worshipped God while doing it, would that be okay?
Absolutely not.
Or, if someone stole a car but was deep in prayer and worship while doing it, would that be okay?
Nope.
I seriously can't see the difference. If all that counts is your motivation, then physical acts don't count for squat.
And I can't see the similarities of your examples

I guess we'll have to leave it at that then because I don't see how I could be any clearer.

[malakhi]

Oh yes, Unam Sanctam is infallible.

Thank you, allend.

Guys, you agree?

[OLD REGGIE]

I'm tellin' ya. Listen to the voice of experience. Conversations about cheese can last a long time.

Not with me. I'm done.

[malakhi]

Is there a qualitative difference between watching the Packers on your RCA versus being at Lambeau Field?

Yeah, my living room is warmer, and I don't have to wait in line to use the bathroom.

That one is not in a state of grace to receive does not relieve one of the duty to worship and participate as fully as possible.

Makes sense.

[SoothingDave]

Let me ask you this. We have heard today the testimony of one who was moved by a Crucifix and contemplating the very real suffering of Christ to find God again and get "Saved."

Was his experience all for naught because of the "sin" involved in its beginning? Would he have had the same experience in an empty Protestant worship hall? Should we Catholic apologize to him for leading him down the wrong path?

SD

[malakhi]

Ahem. You have no graven images in your possession? No images of anything on earth, in the sea or in the heavens?

U.S. currency has 'graven images' on it. Avoid sin: send that 'debbil' money to angelo.

[IMRight]

Each of these men were fallible creatures who were used by God to act in an infallible manner. That is exactly what happens when the Pope acts infallibly. Exactly the same thing. We don't mean that everything he says is correct for his entire papcy. We don't mean he never sins. We mean that in certain extraordinary conditions, the Holy Spirit works through him to guarantee truth.

Please look up my response under "preaching to the choir" SD.
That was the point of my post. Even if they point to a renegade Pope in history (there were a few) and identify statements that don't fit Catholic teachings. That does not mean that he was speaking ex cathedra on matters of faith and morals. As you know and have said.

The example being discussed here seems to be an error in interpretation of what was being refuted and why.

[DouglasKC]

We don't worship the image. That is your perception only. The image of Christ, who was really on earth, as a real man with a real face, who suffered a real death for us, can lead us to better understand the reality of the glory of God. All those poor, dull, illiterate folks certainly understand the concept when they see a Crucifix.

Let's approach this another way. This is going to seem indelicate because I need to make a point. Suppose someone were to make a statue of Jesus (or what they thought Jesus looked like) doing something indelicate, like going to the bathroom. They put it up in their church because they were inspired by it to worship the "true" Jesus.

Would this be okay?

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I belong to and Independent Fundamental Baptist Church. All their doctrine is based on scripture. There are IFBC's all over and they pretty much share the same beliefs, but some are more liberal, some more legelistic. We feel the one we belong to is moderate. Independent churches are under no authority except the pastor and memebers who attend. When we get large enough that the pastor can't handle all the needs then we will elect Deacons to help him. They will have to qualify according to the qualifications in the bible (1-2 Tim. Titus). Pretty simple as it was meant to be:)

Becky

[OLD REGGIE]

I, too, wondered just what I had said that sent SD over the edge. I have come to the conclusion it was a number of things; the cumulative effect of which was responsible.

I insisted there was a difference between , and .

I insisted that all wasn't the same as some.

I took offense when my posts were rephrased and then the rephrased posts were attacked.

I also took offense when my "rephrased" posts were attacked and I was called a liar.

I insisted that language has a meaning and we should be careful in our choice of words.

I insisted that it wasn't possible to read my mind; that it was necessary to respond to what I actually said.

I have, on several occassions, been sarcastic and not sympathetic toward his "I didn't mean that" excuses.

I used official Catholic sources for many of my arguments. This made it impossible to attack the source.

I refused to pay him the respect he believes he, and he alone, deserves.

I suggested it was unethical to cut and paste with out giving attribution to the source.

And, finally, I did not accept his "dogmatic" pronouncements.

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[OLD REGGIE]

I have much greater problems with the teachings of Paul than I do with the teachings of Jesus. I believe that what is taught about Jesus is false.

Paul is a unique character to all Christians. When he relegates women to second class status our RC friends believe he was infallibly inspired. When He says all Bishops must be married and have children, he really "didn't mean it that way.

I happen to believe he was a misogamist and a mysogynist. I also believe he lorded it over Peter, but that is another story.
===================

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I'm tellin' ya. Listen to the voice of experience. Conversations about cheese can last a long time.

Not with me. I'm done.

Let me see if I have this right, your turning your back on "cheese." I'm hitting the abuse button. :)

BigMack

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Conversations about cheese can last a long time.

A little too long, IMO:)

Becky

[JHavard]

This is going to seem indelicate because I need to make a point. Suppose someone were to make a statue of Jesus (or what they thought Jesus looked like)

Doug, think of this.....There are no descriptions of what Jesus looked like other then he was probably an average looking Jew.

The pictures and statues we see that supposedly represent him and Mary are pictures from inside some man’s mind.

So the end results are pretty well depicted by what the artist envisioned them to be.

If he happened to have an evil influence helping him,then we are now seeing the results of it.

Think of how some are going to feel, when Christ returns, and we see he looks nothing like the statues and pictures, and we ask him who is this man that weve thought was you all these years, and he says,

Who was the son of the morning? how art thou cut down to the ground,
Who can be a wolf, and pass off as a sheep?
Who was full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

Now who do you think this tall, thin, hansom, effeminate looking person with long blondish hair, unthreatening, charismatic looking young man with sad blue eyes really was?

Dare we ask who was the actual woman who’s likeness is said to be that of Mary?

[NATE4"ONE NATION"]

Actually, much worse, the statue of Mary depicted in the Vatican is the exact replication of the ancient goddess Eshtar(Easter) the goddess of fertility!!